The Chuck and Nancy Show
A lot of progressive Democrats want younger, more liberal leaders in Congress. I say let’s give the geezers a chance. I’d like more young, liberal members of Congress, but I want wily, experienced people in leadership.
Case in point: Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi just yanked Trump’s chain by canceling a meeting with him in response to a presidential tweet. Trump, prompted by lord knows what he heard on TV, tweeted that he didn’t see a path to a deal with the Democrats, so they said fine, we’ll deal with the Republicans in Congress.
The dagger is in the suggestion that they might find a deal with the GOP, without Trump’s input. Knowing Trump’s propensity for lashing out, they’re trying to goad him into a fight with McConnell. Let’s see if it works.
Trump’s response: Insult them some more.
Nice try, but McConnell and Ryan quickly shot down the idea that they can be dealt with outside of dealing with the President.
Ryan has toed the line from the beginning. Looks like McConnell is realizing that he’s toast unless he gets on Trump’s good side.
But there are other Republicans that can be dealt with and who, as much as some people abhor those principles, they will stand on them (to a greater or lesser extent, like all mortals). There are about 7 Republican Senators that for various reasons, do not support the bill in its present form.
The thing about today’s Senate, is that the margin is so narrow that any defection puts any bill in question, coupled with Trump’s propensity for pissing people off means that at any point in time there will be a group who have the cajones to thumb their nose at Trump, especially if they have a serious illness or will no run for reelection.
People are starting to talk about the vaunted “the deficit matters” (except when it doesn’t it seems.
We’ll never see a Democratic majority again as long as Pelosi is in leadership. Her Q scores are in the neighborhood of trump, and her name alone drives away potential voters
They’re probably on a par with those of McConnell. Didn’t stop the R’s from gaining the Senate majority.
I don’t choose my leaders by Q score. Catering to idiots is how we got here.
I against any versions of “Democrats better do __X___, or Republicans will do ___Y__.”
It is so fucking stupid, but Democrats can’t get past it.
Reports now that at least 5 women were victims of John Conyers….I bet Leader Pelosi wishes now she could take back her remarks about the “icon” and giving him shade earlier in the week.
Chris Cilizza’s take on Pelosi/ Conyers:
“The problem for Pelosi is that her initial response was so so tone-deaf — and telling. Because she knows Conyers and because he is a Democrat, Pelosi was more than willing to not only give Conyers the benefit of the doubt but defend him as a “icon in our country.” Her apparent unfamiliarity with the details of the allegations against Conyers is either poor preparation for a major national interview or willful blindness.
Neither is a good excuse.”
Nobody who counts cares. John Conyers has been an embarrassment for years, and should have retired for age-related reasons long ago. Who gives a fuck if Pelosi gave him cover for a couple of days? What, do you think she’ll lose her seat over it?
Media covers sex because it sells, but it plays out fairly quickly, as this is starting to do. They always kill the goose. Remember “Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?” It was a big hit one day a week, so it went to two, then more and pretty soon nobody watched it anymore. Overkill is what an over-saturated media environment does best.
This flip is amazing.
I still think Pelosi and Schumer should go, but it’s because they are incredible losers. Without Obama, the Dem party would have lost every election since 2006. Some of you support her now because of some new found omerta-type loyalty to.. the democratic party of all things….yikes. It’s like watching Penn Staters during the whole Sandusky thing. (fuck joe paterno and fuck you for liking him)
you just cant wrap your heads around the movement that is building. We are at the beginning of a new sexual revolution, but one focused more on sexual agency and autonomy. Think of it this way. Baby It’s Cold Outside was not written as a date rape anthem, but it is one now. You can either cling to your old ways or change. This is so much more than “sex sells”… if you dont get that, you are going to be left in the dust wondering why you are becoming more and more isolated… probably blaming women and beta males for it.
Where was I… oh right. Pelosi and Schumer (and the next few old farts in line for their jobs) have to go. Time for the ice float.
The movement that is building is nowhere near the size you think it is, and it has nothing to do with politics other than to panic people, including 53 percent of white women, into voting for Trump. Your “new sexual revolution” won’t take place until all the men over 50 are dead. That’s 40 years from now. Good luck.
My loyalty is to people who get things done. Nancy Pelosi has fuck-all to do with elections outside her district. What you reactors don’t understand is that if she disappears, they demonize the next person in line.
Democrats lose because they suck up to corporations and can’t make a case anymore that they stand for working people. End of story.
Lots of people like you never understand that they’re being played. This sex-panic approach to elections doesn’t work. It didn’t work against Trump, it won’t work against Moore.
And three years from now, once they’ve stopped using it as a weapon to get rid of enemies, the articles will be asking, “Whatever happened to that new sexual revolution?”
You don’t gain power by making a stink about what a victim you are. Nobody is going to give it to you, or to women, or anyone who doesn’t currently hold it. This is a mug’s game.
It has nothing to do with politics. This is a social movement. It is bigger than politics and bigger than Hollywood. It will take place without you. You are not necessary. I am not necessary. Get used to mattering less.
Pelosi is looking none too cagey and none too sharp lately, if you question Trump’s mental facilities suggest you question hers as well as women are more prone to dementia than men. We need new leaders that aren’t corporatists (Think Carper & Coons) and not the dreaded “Republican Lite”.
@Ben: Get used to being wrong. And it wouldn’t be happening at all without politics. It’s been weaponized, but it doesn’t work. Moore is still winning.
It will not take place at all. As I said, the number of people who agree with you is a lot smaller than you think.
@bamboozer: But we don’t need them at the moment, when none are in the offing for the job. The guy who challenged her was from the right, not the left.
You can’t beat something with nothing. You have nobody to carry the banner, so she’s better than nobody.
@ Ben: If it “has nothing to do with politics,” why not just start a church? Then you would only have to work with people who think exactly like you on every issue. Maybe you should look up the definition of “liberal” again.
“why not just start a church? Then you would only have to work with people who think exactly like you on every issue”
That’s nothing like my church.
the definition of “Liberal” is excusing predatory behavior? Nice try.
Of COURSE I want to work with people I disagree with. I just dont want them in charge…. what’s wrong with you?
And my “church” is a Reform Synagogue. If you think there is only happy agreement in those walls, my friend, you are WOEFULLY misinformed about how those things operate.
@Ben: In my experience, congregations get along worse than R’s and D’s at the same bar.
It may appear that way, but arguments are a cherished cultural tradition.
It’s the Goyim who cant seem to disagree without getting all personal and dickish.
I meant all congregations, not just Jewish ones. Christians call them congregations, too.
That said, I know plenty of Jews who can get personal and dickish with the best of them.
I’m pretty sure Ben would brook no dissent in any church he would start. If somebody challenged him he’d whine and then kick the dissenter out for wrong thinking.
Also, the idea is that you might have to work with some people you disapprove of in order to elect people who would give you at least some of what you want.
You’re confusing Ben with Delaware Democrat over at “that other” blog.
Religion is bullshit. Every major religion is sexist and the “morality” it teaches has a lot to do with our culture or patriarchy.
I disagree with dems that we should bend over for corporations… I’ll still vote for them over GOP because I dont want to see a genocide.
“Religion is bullshit.”
Amen. But I go to church anyway because a mass of people can achieve more than a bunch of individuals.
Ben, do you spend all your time grinding that axe? I want some/a lot of what you want. I just don’t want progressive purity to keep us from stopping Trump Republicans. On the outside looking in is no place to stop anybody.
I’m not confusing Ben with anybody. But that other guy has problems, too.
Yes, religion is bullshit.
who said anything about progressive purity?
Look sport, I voted for and loudly advocated for a candidate i all but detested last election cycle (after the primary battle was over) because im a pragmatist. SO piss off with your purity crap. Save that for people still hoping to vote for Bernie Sanders into 2024.
The dems are out of power until at LEAST 2020. Trump will probably win re-election because the Dems are so enamored with appealing to everyone, they make sure they punch left every chance they get, while still managing to look like caricatures of spineless coastal elites.
This is the time to rebuild the party, but all they are doing is shoring up failed old party leaders who’s only accomplishments are making party hacks blindly loyal to them.
Im sorry you’re so upset about Matt Laurer, or whatever has gotten so emotional today.
@Ben:You reek of progressive purity. You don’t have to say the words.
I’m not upset about Matt Lauer. Never watched him anyway. I don’t usually bother with your comments, but sometimes your hard-line progressivism really pisses me off. I don’t want people like you to keep liberals lost in the woods.
I’m gonna go listen to El Som’s music now.
yes I would prefer a real progressive over Aetna employees like Tom Carper. Im not going to NOT vote for a D over an R because of it. are you new?
I just don’t want Democrats to nominate people who are so far to the left they scare off moderate voters needed to oust Trump Republicans. I realize there’s another theory about that.
New? I’ve been selling unpainted furniture around here for years.
You are allowing the “center” to be dragged to the right by playing into that game.
The politicians I support arent that radical int he context of the last few decades, but ever since the GOP got turned into the Likud party, the idea of “moderate” has become Barry Fucking Goldwater. I wont redefine my politics to fit your need to a centrist savior who will only bow to the GOP in the name of compromise. If that makes me an ANTIFA terr’ist, so be it.
And that argument is made very hollow by Barack Obama’s victories. He didnt run as a moderate centrist. The “smart move” in 2008 was Clinton… who lost to the more left wing “scary guy”.
I would vote for Obama all day.
great! While I liked Senator and Candidate Obama more than President Obama… until we got to the 2015 “Obama dont Care” phase, that is the kind of politician I want..
But do you see what is being done to our political left/right scale? The GOP is pulling the the right and the “moderates” arent fighting it, lest they stop being seen as moderate. That is why I am so apologetically “leftist”.
This all culminates in us being tricked into thinking someone like Cory Booker is some progressive savior… he’s more likely to be the Democratic Marco Rubio.
Having well reasoned political principles and advocating for them is a “purity test.”
Better just give up now and put a Biden sticker on your car. Nevermind that equivocation is one of the reasons we’re in this mess in the first place.
Make all your concessions now and log off. That’s my advice.
Corey Booker has been so wrapped up with NJ pharma, Wall St and Silicon Valley millionaires. Look at his history as Mayor in NJ….even Bernie Sanders and many other celebs publicly called him out earlier in the year on his vote on drug importation.
That’s what I’m saying..
But what are you gonna do when the DNC pushes him through as the nominee and dares you to protest and let 45 win a second term?
You guys are dirty purists. Manchin/Lieberman ’20!
With any luck Ms K Harris will be attorney general and she can fail to prosecute Mnuchin again!
HOORAY!
The “purity” lies in the need to feel on the moral high ground even when it ultimately goes against one’s political interests. More Trump Republicans make it less likely your version of what is is right and proper will happen. I get that you think your approach will attract enough votes. If it turns out that way, that’s fine and I worry for no reason. But it seems more likely to me the opposite will happen.
Virginia was encouraging, but I wonder if some of the ideas behind those victories were too moderate for some of the commentators here and on the other blog. I was happy with all the Democratic wins, and noted that the transgendered candidate won by stressing roads instead of identity.
Purity isn’t about a moral argument. It’s about a political one. Why someone would concede and broker trade-offs now rather than advocate for policies and candidates that align with their politics is beyond me.
Could I make concessions in the booth in November. Perhaps. Will I make any before then? Absolutely not.
I would vote for farther-left-than-me Democratic candidates over Trump Republicans because that extremism is much more problematic.
How does it seem like “the opposite’ will happen? Dems went with the centrist “not too crazy” choice in 04 and 16…. how’d that go?
The exciting candidate always wins. Always.
Reagan was more exciting than Cater or Mondale
Bush I was basically Reagan 2, so that gave him a lift over Tank Man
Clinton was more exciting than Bush or Dole
Bush 2 was more exciting than Gore and especially Kerry
Obama was more exciting than McCain or Romney
and… well, we know the rest.
Going for a safe moderate to combat the fucking rabid, flaming hippo wont work. The progressive base is bigger than you think.
Elizabeth Warren is exciting?
I think many voters consider a lot of farther-left ideas a little scary or silly, their defenders a little too hectoring.
Hectoring? Hahaha. You think that’s a critisism unique to the “farther-left”? That’s funny.
People have been conditioned to believe the poor and the sick don’t deserve the security of housing, food and good schools. That they make “bad decisions” and “don’t work hard”.
People have been conditioned to believe that what literally the rest of the Democratic world does re: health care, guns, criminal justice and taxes can’t be done here because it’s “silly.”
There’s absolutely no reason to hold these views. These people are either in on it or rubes.
They have been conditioned to believe this so capital can continue to be consolidated until maybe 50 people own everything and keep all the money in the Caymans & Isle of Man.
If this is hectoring, good. If my approach doesn’t appeal to you sense of civility, I don’t care.
Yeah, those aren’t the voters I want. If they’re that timid they’ll be too afraid to go out on election day.
I agree with most of what you (REV) just mentioned. I just don’t want the cure to turn out worse than the problem. You framed your ideas in a very positive way, but they will also be framed in other ways that don’t sound so good.
Actually, I think identity politics and “political correctness” irritate more people than the fear of “socialism” does.
Alby: I want all the voters it takes to beat the other side.
I think you have a point on the PC / identity bit.
And Alby’s got it on getting the argument. If you’re confused or a rube you’re worthless to me in this fight anyway. I can’t count on you. You’re unreliable.
People are fired up for a counter attack. I’ve met more & more everyday. If you’re scared then get the fuck out of the way, because we don’t plan on slowing down.
(Brief aside, I met Bernie briefly Tuesday in DC. Shook his hand & told him to keep giving ’em hell. If that old geezer can keep fighting I don’t see why we can’t.)
Mostly just scared of Trumpism.
NA, you have brought it to the bottom line; the real threat to the country and the world are the Republiscum. But instead of rallying together, we eat our own. We lose….
Wow, Vanella: “I met Bernie briefly Tuesday in DC.”
Did you ask him when he is going to pay his bills, from his campaign?
And the guy made $1 million last year!
He’s a socialist, who never had a real job. Will probably write a book, like they all do.
“I want all the voters it takes to beat the other side.”
So do I. We want to gather them in different places.
I’ll take any place that has enough votes to beat the other side.
That’s what we disagree on. I’d rather find them among current non-voters than centrist voters.
Alby, if the places you prefer can produce enough votes, that’s fine. Although I don’t know why you think it’s worse to bring on centrists than slackers who haven’t bothered to vote. Maybe Democrats could provide election-day booze for these otherwise disengaged people, and a few patronage jobs.
“Although I don’t know why you think it’s worse to bring on centrists than slackers who haven’t bothered to vote.”
Because the “center” is false. They type of person who calls themself a “centrist” nowadays is a Mike Castle Republican… Or John Carney. Delaware is a perfect example of unnecessary centrism. We could and should be a leading progressive state. NO republican can over hope to win statewide office, yet the party chooses to elect republicans who have been painted blue.
Try to get over the media-driven optics that people like Warren or Sanders, or even Sherrod Brown are these crazy communist lunatics. They are FDR dems.. just not racist.
As was pointed out ‘on that other site”(love that, btw), there are lots of untapped votes among young, single women… for example.. and many other voting blocks of people who feel totally left in the dust (hint, the racists now feel totally represented and are voting in hoards)
You may call them slackers, and I may disagree, but as 2016 showed, the biggest electoral winner was “NO ONE”… That tells me there are orders of magnitude more “slakers” than “centrists”.
Screw the fence sitters. I dont want to have common cause with people who arent sure whether or not they will vote against Trump. Fuck em.
Nathan, I dont think you have a real picture of the people who didnt vote. I have bad feelings toward them too, trust me. I fought back puke voting for Clinton, but only because the alternative…. well. you know.
Know what WONT make them show up to vote? Insulting them. SOme of these people have very real griped with both parties. They are right to feel abandoned by the Dems if they arent affluent middle class. I can tell you for sure I will never vote for Carney again. Am I a slacker for not wanting to reward a DINO corporate shill with my vote just because he wears the “right” party pin?
And I will not vote for him, secure in the knowledge that a GOPer cant win here. That he’ll be able to get his win somewhere else, but it wont be with my help…. and maybe I’ll miscalculate that… like so many people in PA, MI and Wisconsin did. Maybe a Republican will win in De because of the “slackers”… And maybe next time the Dems will remember their base is more than a pile of “good dogs” who come running for table scraps.
Seems to me there was no justification for any Democrat NOT to cast a vote against Trump. It was either a self-destructive political miscalculation, ignorance or, yes, laziness. I do think Hillary messed up badly by ignoring the working class in the upper Midwest while assuming she had the election in the bag. It might have turned non-voters (the not-insane ones) into Hillary (anti-Trump) voters. I think not voting out of principle could work in Delaware, but if the Republican candidate was a Trumpster or a Tea-Party idiot I’d still have to vote for Carney.
a crazy t-partier with a Dem GA is better than a Dino with a rubber stamp GA
Please try to understand that advocating for policies and candidates now and casting a vote on election day are two different things.
Considering this Alby is correct. After voting for Clinton I’d rather push very hard for actual socialist programs and more just distribution rather than get scared and gravitate toward another garbage neoliberal with no ideas and no heart. (Think Chris Coons)
If you’re scared. If you want to make nice with never Trump neocons. If you want to trade in smears of real leftists, you’re useless. We can convince disenfranchised non-voters to support Medicare for all, for example. I really think we can.
If your favorite candidate uses the word bipartisan, you don’t have lie down and take it. When the time comes to vote, that is a different proposition. Take stand. Show some pride in your ideas. Don’t give up in advance.
@nathan: There were a lot of young people, mostly men but some women too, who stayed home. That’s where I think a more progressive campaign platform (as opposed to the position papers-platform) could generate excitement. I don’t see centrism as generating the sense of possibility required to drive turnout.
Obama is the example here. His first campaign, not his second, generated real optimism. That’s what wins elections. Young women supported Hillary strongly, as did college-educated women, but that wasn’t nearly enough to overcome the lack of enthusiasm from most other demographics. It wasn’t even a majority of white women.
Just as cutting taxes to the bone has been shown not to work as fiscal policy by the examples of Kansas, Louisiana and now Oklahoma, the Democratic Party strategy — generating enthusiasm one piece of its sprawling core at a time — has been tried and found wanting.
I understand the idea of pumping for what might be considered relatively extreme ideas, then hoping to end up with at least some of that. But those ideas will be in the air pre-nomination, giving folks opportunity to associate policies they’re leery of with the Democrats. And if you did get everything you want, I just think that candidate might have trouble winning.
Everything I said in the post above also applies to young people who stayed home.
I’m not really advocating centrism, just saying I think winning these elections requires help from centrists.
Anybody who’s not afraid of Trump is nuts.
Afraid is probably the wrong word, but I feel you. Maybe I’d described mine as grave concern.
But I’m personally going to fight guns ablaze and (middle) fingers high. I’m not allowing my concern to pressure me into equivocation. Centrist neoliberalism bullshit is what got us in this mess in the first place. Don’t see how a casual factor is also the cure.
Final note on this: While I don’t advocate for true centrism, I do often feel like a center-left kind of guy. I know, I know. But notice the “left” part of that. Nonetheless, I’m pretty sure this wins little approval here.
As a political philosophy “center left” is the bomb (balm?). All the angels in heaven are center left. As a political strategy it blows donkey dicks.
Like I said.