Thursday Open Thread [5.19.16]
For weeks, some current and former Sanders campaign workers have privately acknowledged feeling disheartened about Mr. Weaver’s determination to go after the Democratic National Committee, fearing a pitched battle with the party they hope to support in the general election. The intraparty fighting has affected morale, they say, and raised concerns that Mr. Weaver, a longtime Sanders aide who more recently ran a comic book store, was not devoted to achieving Democratic unity. Several described the campaign’s message as having devolved into a near-obsession with perceived conspiracies on the part of Mrs. Clinton’s allies.
Democratic leaders said they wanted to do everything possible to avoid having Clinton-Sanders tensions send the Philadelphia convention into the sort of chaos they had expected to mar the Republican convention. So far, though, Mr. Sanders has not indicated that he would ask his delegates to support Mrs. Clinton, as she did in 2008 for Barack Obama.
The big hole in this plan on the part of the Sanders campaign is the role of the Super Delegates. Sanders needs them in order to have any possible argument that he can win the nomination. He needs all of them to switch to him. What Bernie has not considered is that the remaining Super Delegates might just endorse Hillary between now and June 7, ending the campaign on their own, because they are tired of Bernie and Weaver. And Bernie may in fact start losing his own Super Delegates.
He lost one yesterday:
Sanders superdelegate flips to Clinton https://t.co/3RuW0aNnJQ
— Jennifer Epstein (@jeneps) May 17, 2016
That being said, I encourage everyone, Berniacs and Clintonistas alike, to read this piece by The Slot titled “We called up Bernie fans Who Threatened Dem State Chair and Asked Them to Explain Themselves.” You all know me, know that I am fervently not a Bernie supporter, and you know that I have grown to despise some of the more vehement and younger Bernie supporter. And even I left reading that article feeling sympathy for them!!! Goddamnit. LOL.
The long and short of it is that the Bernie supporters who made death threats against various Democratic Party officials are just dumb, naive kids. This is their first election, and they feel like if Bernie doesn’t win it is the end of all things. I remember feeling that way once. They were frustrated and wanted to make a statement. They way they chose to make that statement was completely unacceptable, and some of them recognize that.
Jonathan Capehart says that people are overestimating the power of Trump’s white supporters:
In op-eds for The Post and the Wall Street Journal, Republican pollster and strategist Whit Ayres laid out the dismal demographics facing the GOP. Ayres pointed out in the WSJ that Mitt Romney, the 2012 Republican presidential nominee, “won 59% of white voters, the highest percentage of any Republican challenging an incumbent president in the history of exit polling.” In The Post, Ayres wrote that current demographic trends mean that in order for the GOP to win in November, its nominee must now win 65 percent of the white vote. That’s six percentage points higher than four years ago. Trump’s white support right now is six percentage points below what Romney got and 12 percentage points below the Ayres projection for 2016.[…]
That’s because white voters are a shrinking part of the electorate. “Whites accounted for 72 percent of the national electorate in 2012, down from 83 percent in 1992 and 88 percent in 1976,” Ayres wrote in the WSJ last year. “If this pattern continues—with an average decline since 1996 of 2.75 percentage points each presidential election—the 2016 electorate will be about 69 percent white and 31 percent nonwhite.” On the other hand, 50,000 U.S.-born Hispanics will become eligible to vote every month for the next 20 years.[…]
Because of this downward demographic trend, Ayres wrote in The Post that the Republican nominee would need to win 30 percent of the nonwhite vote or 65 percent of the white vote to win the White House. Meanwhile, Phillips citing voting and census data argues in his book that a progressive victory in November would require “securing the support of 81 percent of people of color and 39 percent of Whites.” If the election were held today, as the NBC/Survey Monkey survey posits, Trump wouldn’t hit either of the necessary benchmarks.
Allegations of 'hijacked' Nevada Democratic convention unfounded. @PolitiFactNV was there. https://t.co/8Xof3Qskru pic.twitter.com/VfXEvBbmpZ
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) May 18, 2016
One would think that Sanders, the man who continues to insist he’s the only Democrat who can beat Trump, would speak up forcefully to condemn the actions of his supporters in Nevada. If nothing else, it’s the right thing to do. Instead, much like Trump when pressed about the violent streak within his ranks, he has largely weaseled out of his responsibility to make it clear to his supporters that this is not acceptable behavior.
The Sanders campaign has been noticeably silent about the events on social media – the main way the candidate communicates with his supporters. When asked by reporters, his campaign spokesman, Michael Briggs, insists that Sanders does not “condone violence or encourage violence or even threats of violence.” Then in the next breath, his campaign abdicates all responsibility for what happened in Nevada, offers excuses and shifts the blame.
Briggs says the campaign “had no role in encouraging the activity that the party is complaining about.” He even implied to The New York Times that Democratic Party itself is partly responsible for the tense atmosphere because it’s not doing a good enough job of being welcoming to “people who have been energized and excited by (the Sanders) campaign.” Adding fuel to the conspiracy fire, the campaign still is considering whether to challenge the outcome of the Nevada delegate count.
I see #justintrudeau got rough in parliament. I asked him what he did to relax. "Punch people in the face," said the recreational boxer.
— Howard Fineman (@howardfineman) May 18, 2016
The Bernie Sanders Trainwreck At this point, the best thing Bernie Sanders’s supporters can probably do for his reputation is to vote against him in the remaining primaries and caucuses. Hillary Clinton long ago wrapped up the nomination. Tuesday’s results — her narrow victory in Kentucky and his win by about 10 percentage points in Oregon — doesn’t change anything: It’s over. If you include super-delegates, Clinton is only about 100 delegates away from clinching, and with Democratic proportional allocation she is basically guaranteed to get there.
Yet the closer Clinton gets to her official victory, the more Sanders and his campaign act as if the nomination was unfairly stolen from him — that somehow the doors of the party have been unfairly closed against his followers. This culminated in an ugly scene in Nevada last weekend, with Sanders supporters threatening Democratic Party officials there. The result? Liberals have turned on Sanders, urging him to get out of the race now or, at least, to change his tone.
I feel like this entire primary season could be summed up with, "White men real mad they aren't the only people who matter anymore."
— Jill Filipovic (@JillFilipovic) May 18, 2016
One thing is largely indisputable: Bernie Sanders himself could help clear the air by informing his supporters that while there are many things about the Democratic nomination process that ought to be changed, no one has “stolen” the nomination from him or from them. Perhaps a thousand small things gave Hillary Clinton an “unfair” advantage in this contest, but they were mostly baked into the cake, not contrived to throw cold water on the Bern. And the best step Sanders’ supporters could take to promote their long-term interests in the Democratic Party would be to get a grip before they wind up helping Donald Trump win the presidency. And Bernie Sanders himself has a responsibility to talk his devoted followers off the ledge.
Do people really think Sanders can irreparably fracture the Democratic Party? When Trump is the nominee on the other side? Seems unlikely
— Ben Terris (@bterris) May 19, 2016
That is the only saving grace of this election. Otherwise, the Democratic schism between purists and pragmatists would split the party in two and doom us to 1968 or 1980.
If Hillary does win this election, it will be an amazing feat, given the even unconscious sexism of her own allies. Exhibit A: Ed Rendell.
Charles P. Pierce (Bernie supporter):
The Sanders people should know better than to conclude what has been a brilliant and important campaign by turning it into an extended temper tantrum. I voted for Bernie Sanders … But if anybody thinks that, somehow, he is having the nomination “stolen” from him, they are idiots.
“I want to go up to every single one of them and apologize, I want to go up to every single one of them and tell them how grateful I am that they are in this country and apologize on behalf of the Republican Party for Donald Trump.” — Former Sen. Bob Bennett (R-UT), quoted by NBC News, just before he died, asking his son if there were any Muslims in the hospital.
.@BernieSanders manager to @chucktodd: race has shown structural impediments to insurgent candidates.
Then again, @POTUS is president
— Mike Memoli (@mikememoli) May 18, 2016
“White men real mad they aren’t the only people who matter anymore.”
This sad fact is at least ten years in the making, interesting as I’m an old white man and refuse to be angry. Meditation and music will do that for you. But on to the young and fiery Bernie-ites. Sympathy? No, article or not. Understanding? Yep, I’m old but not that old. But I was always practical and pragmatic, I had to be for what life has handed me, that and I remember the completely unpractical late sixties. It’s Bernie himself that’s failing here, he has failed to call out or calm the violent part of his following, and in the process completely lost me. There, I said it.
The reason that Bernie has not asked his supporters to support Clinton is that the primary season is not over. Shame on the NYT for just repeating this bullshit as though there are entitlements to be had here.
White men real mad they aren’t the only people who matter anymore.
TESTIFY!
TESTIFY my ass. What exactly makes Sanders’s positions so white? or so male? I have a feeling white males as a class will benefit more from Hillary’s agenda than Bernie’s. White males as a class aren’t exactly anxious for Sanders oversight of Wall Street.
Portraying Bernie and his supporters as some kind of white supremacists is nothing more than Swiftboating. Hillary’s cheerleaders learned well from watching Karl Rove.
“Portraying Bernie and his supporters as some kind of white supremacists is nothing more than Swiftboating.”
Testify!
^^^^Very funny response, white guys. Especially since you are the only people to invoke “white supremacists”.
oh, dont act like the entire Sanders campaign hasnt been painted as “a single issue thing that doesn’t ‘really’ care about women and minorities” That is basically the entire reason for *our defensiveness and anger. “berniebros so white” “special place in hell” … It’s cute that no one ever came out and said it, but if Repukes can have dog whistles, so can the DNC establishment.
Guys and Gals– I think that Fillopvic tweet is more directed at Trump than Bernie. Yes, there is a BernieBro element to Bernie’s campaign, but Bernie’s appeal is ideological, not built on racial resentment
I hate white men and bigots
Next time you want to have on about how condescending I am to you or even that you are ignore, I want you to remember this response especially. This response engages in absolutely nothing I had to say. This response dredges up your own issues with how BernieBros get portrayed and tries to pretend that this is what I think. There is nothing to respect in this kind of response, ben. Absolutely nothing. If you aren’t clear about what I say or what I mean, you may ask for clarification. Just spinning up a narrative that you assign to me that fits your own current grievances is just bullshit.
Mouse…lol.
Ed Rendell is talking about that quote on Radio Times right now.
Ha ha sucker Republicans!
If you had nominated Cruz, Kasich, Rubio, Christie, Fiorina, Walker, Paul, Huckabee, Jindal, Perry, Graham, or even Santorum, you’d be winning this thing!!
Because I’m not a particularly big fan of Bernie but rather his critique of what’s wrong with our system, maybe it was easier for me to switch gears after his loss became obvious. And I say that as, um, no fan of the Clintons.
But let me offer this to the Bernie supporters: Hillary Clinton may be an example of what we don’t like about the American system, but she’s far from the worst example of it. Yes, she’s far too cozy with corporate America for most Bernie supporters, but she does have a record of advocating for the powerless in those situations.
I realize the analogy may be lost on white guys, but think of Bernie as Malcolm and Hillary as Martin. And yes, I know that’s a flawed analogy — maybe HIllary is more like Booker T. Washington and Bernie more like DuBois — but the paradigm is the same: one person wants slow, less-confrontational progress, the other thinks that plays into the oppressors’ hands.
Her husband is self-serving. She is not. She is, I believe, a reformer underneath it all. The job of Bernie supporters is to nurture that reformer’s spirit. Death threats will do the opposite.
Look at the latest polls, Jason330.
It’s not about you, cassandra. I didnt even say “you” in that response, so i have no idea how you took it to mean I was accusing you of saying any of that. You aren’t the only person who talks about things. I’m not the only person who talks about things. Ya know, I actually considered… and took out, a whole long disclaimer about how I wasnt implying that YOU said those things…. or that i was addressing anyone in particular… and I decided that would be unnecessary and childish.
What I can’t get over is how Bernie blew something soooooo simple. Just call out the bad behavior and move on. Why on earth someone would double down on this boggles my mind. He had to know this is the sort of story the press loves. Why did he give them red meat? What the hell is going on with his campaign? That’s a serious question. Which brings me back to what I asked several weeks ago… what is his end game/exit strategy? What is he trying accomplish?
One last thing, for years on this site we’ve discussed the black vote, the woman’s vote, the Hispanic vote, the Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, etc. vote and no one batted an eye, but, for some reason, discussing the white vote, the male vote is a bridge too far. If that’s true then everyone is just a voter, no modifiers allowed. Everyone gets to be the default citizen.
@pandora
What I can’t get over is how Bernie blew something soooooo simple. Just call out the bad behavior and move on.
If you look back carefully, you will find that about the only politician in recent memory who passed this test was John McCain, when he told his supporters to stop saying certain things about Barack Obama because they weren’t true.
And that (as lots of other politicians have noted) did not in the end work out so well for him.
^ Yup. His sign is leaving my front yard. The “revolution” is turning into a temper tantrum.
As for the votes… Discussing “the ____ vote” paints that _____ as monolithic group with the exact same values and mind. It’s wrong. I think the reason minority groups vote so heavily D is because the Rs openly hate them. I think it is hard to discuss the “white vote”, since there are so many sub-categories. Think about the Catholic Vote… is that inclusive of all races of Catholics? Is it different from the “white vote”? (same could be said for Jews.) “white” is too big of a group (for better or worse…. but worse) to lable as one voting block…….. and really, so is ANY group. All African Americans do not think the same on every issue. Even with Jews…. some of us are pro-Israel.. to the point they would support genocide of Palestinians in order to have a “safe” homeland… while some find that completely disgusting and think we should not be arming Israel at all. just my thoughts. Not saying anyone said anything.
Um… okay then, Steve. This story isn’t going away, so good luck to Bernie on this one. Here’s the truth (and one we’ve pointed out for years): The rules are different for Republicans and Democrats, so I’m not buying the McCain example.
And there should be a difference between liberal and conservative behavior and how we react to it – Lord knows, we’ve called Republicans out for it for years. Were we lying, simply being political opportunists? We’re okay with bad, threatening behavior as long as it’s our bad threatening behavior?
@pandora–I’m not justifying it, I’m just saying that most politicians on the national stage are feverishly averse to that kind of statement. They fear losing their most activist zealots and become tone-deaf to the overall import.
I agree completely that’s what Bernie should have done, and I agree completely that it is yet another taint on his campaign, and that he’s going a long way toward squandering his own revolution. (Given that he’s not planning any graceful exit at this point, maybe that’s not such a bad thing for Clinton.)
But I understand the dynamic, and I think that it’s far more common for pols of all stripes to blow this one than to get it right.
It’s not about you, cassandra.
Then who the hell are you responding to? Because if you weren’t responding to my comment, then yours is even further out of left field. Certainly that tweet didn’t invoke all of that narrative, either.
And don’t bother to answer. I think that most readers get the deal here.
Sheesh.
Ed Rendell on Radio Times noting that before Bernie ran for President, he was at DSCC events in places like Martha’s Vineyard courting donors that included Wall Streeters.
Exactly, Ben. No group is a monolith, but until the white vote/white male vote was grouped together there wasn’t an outcry about grouping women and minorities. There wasn’t nuance and sub-groups – that are suddenly being put forth now (Remember the Appalachia sub-group, among others, that were discussed her a while ago? I do) – weren’t considered. There’s something to be learned here.
Part of me wonders which came first–extreme demographic break-down polling (“Clinton’s lead among left-handed former housewives now back in the work force is up to 29%”) or the white male reaction that somehow started to require skin-color, block-voting solidarity.
There has been a narrative all election season long. Do we not get to talk about things less recent than whatever is at the top of the post? Dont bother answering. I think everyone here blah blah blahs.
” There’s something to be learned here.”
…..That, like it or not (not), things “dont matter’ until they happen to white men.
It’s like that meme: “if men got periods, everyone would have 1 week of vaca per month and free access to tampons would be written into the constitution”.
I also think that many minority groups and women have HAD to vote as a monolith. When you are being directly assaulted, you tend to have to vote for self-preservation. I’m SURE there are members of minority groups who are against —– (for example… hey, no one here has expressed this opinion, I am traveling outside the confines of this blog for this ) —- marriage equality. BUT they are much more in favor of equal rights for themselves (not calling anyone selfish.. it is totally fine to vote for self-preservation). SO they put their homophobia (for example, not anyone here) aside, and vote Dem. It will be interesting to see how Liberal/Conservative lines change, if we ever achieve anything close to racial equality in this country. They might not.
“Ed Rendell on Radio Times noting that before Bernie ran for President, he was at DSCC events in places like Martha’s Vineyard courting donors that included Wall Streeters.”
I thought the story was that Bernie didn’t help the Democratic party? Someone is lying.
Everyone is lying
Do you really want to discuss it, Ben? Normally, I hear (not from you usually) is that we can’t discuss Bernie because 1) it’s not about Bernie, and 2) the primary is over so we can’t discuss Bernie.
Why hasn’t Bernie been able to win over the demographics that are costing him the primary? I started this primary season with a shrug. I went to Clinton due, in small part, to comments on this blog. I should have been a natural Sanders supporter – I agree (as I’ve said 1000+ times) with his platform – but he lost me. The narrative wasn’t the problem. Sure, it was part of it, but Clinton has a lot more bad narrative against her and she’s winning. So let’s discuss why things happened.
That’s an empty invitation, btw. I’m off soon – heading to my son’s college graduation out of state. I’ll try to check in here periodically.
Is there a slimier Democrat in America than Ed Rendell? Let’s ask the ugly women what they think.
I don’t have time to read all the comments… has Clinton dropped out yet?
heh, I DO genuinely want to discuss it. I dont want to have to only talk about things based on what one or 2 commenters here have said, that’s all. When I leave out those childish and pedantic (disclaimers) I get into trouble, since im clearly not the best at written communication. I thank you, Pandora, for your constant respectfulness that hardly anyone else (me especially) is able to maintain
aannnyhooooo … Sanders isnt losing me. Sanders supporters are. And I was a bit annoyed that you (pandora) wouldn’t support a candidate based on their worst and loudest supporters… especially when those supporters weren’t really FOR Sanders, they were just AGAINST Clinton. But that’s changed. His campaign has turned into a misinformation battle on Facebook. It’s getting more and more undignified by the day. I still want him to be the next president. I want Donald Trump out of the pubic eye forever FAR more.
It isnt Bernie’s fault some new-comer to the system who doesn’t understand the rules throws a tantrum. He doesnt incite that behavior the way Trump does. He didnt do a good enough job condemning it. I feel like Sanders takes 1 step foward, 1 step back, in regards to uniting the party ultimately. One day, he is for unity… then next, Hillary is a Murdering Thieving monster.
It’s all getting so tiresome. All of it. The sweeping accusations about ______ supporters, the false information for-and-against either candidate.
Congrats to your son! oh, the places he will go.
Ed Rendell is a mess, but the guy knows how to play hardball.
@Pandora – OMG he is graduating already? that was like 16 months…
“Let’s ask the ugly women what they think.”
Now there’s a conversation-killer.
It was a joke, meant to indicate that not all the Bros are on Bernie’s side.
“Ed Rendell is a mess, but the guy knows how to play hardball.”
But he never made it past AAA (for the non-sports fans, that’s the top minor leagues).
Anonymous, I appreciate your earlier comment re Bernie and Clinton. And I actually agree.
In comments about American manufacturing, I am fond of telling people that no one will ever make a plastic fork in the US again. I’m quite wrong about that — it looks like the Chinese are actually moving plastics plants here in order to be closer to their customers.
Hillary could win by historic margins if she adopted, as a counterpoint to “Make America Great Again,” a slogan along the lines of “Let’s Get Back to Work.”
The best way, within normal political bounds, to get the country out of its slow-growth doldrums and start spreading the wealth would be the old Keynesian solution of infrastructure spending.
It’s no accident that the last great wave of infrastructure improvement, the interstate highway system in the 50s and early 60s, corresponded to good economic times. So did the investment in the digital infrastructure in the ’90s. And before that the high unemployment of the Depression corresponded with the construction of so many dams in the ’30s.
We’re due for another such expenditure, both because the money is cheap right now and the infrastructure is in such bad shape. And the area of infrastructure that most needs improvement is water, both incoming and outgoing. It’s not sexy, but the Flint disaster could be used as to show what many other communities could face if we don’t
Yes, I realize the GOP Congress will never go along. But the coming Zika disaster is, I hope, finally going to discredit the philosophy of demonizing government. The media cannot get enough of photos of those pitiable microcephalic infants, and none of them are even from the US yet. Once women in Florida and along the Gulf Coast start bearing them, the media frenzy will be enormous, and the tragedy will be laid at the feet of the Republican Congress.
I’m not saying this because I hope it will happen, and it’s not even the likely course of events. But it appears that the battle over funding to fight Zika is going to continue several more weeks, well into peak mosquito season, and an outbreak could happen anywhere along the swampy, humid East Coast once the hot weather arrives. I consider it inevitable at this point that some cases will appear in the US before Congress acts. And it won’t even take a real epidemic to generate scare headlines in the tabloids.
jerry: elaine, what percentage of people would you say are good-looking?
elaine: 25 percent.
jerry: 25 percent you say? no way! it’s like 4 to 6 percent. it’s a 20-1 shot.
elaine: you’re way off.
jerry: way off? have you been to the motor vehicle bureau? it’s like a leper colony down there.
jerry might be speaking for the mayor.
@cassandra: The cost of production is wages plus shipping, so that’s part of it. But US manufacturing is holding its own for several reasons, not all of them good for workers.
As has been widely noted, we’re replacing lots of people with machines. Mechanized production beats human production in cost savings on several fronts: owners get a tax break for depreciation with machines, which they can’t do with humans; machines don’t get paid overtime; they require maintenance, as humans require health care, but they don’t have dependents; I’m sure I’m missing more.
The point is, with fewer workers to pay and lower wages for those who remain, manufacturing can be competitive.
That’s why I like to point out there’s nothing magical about manufacturing jobs. They formerly correlated with good pay, but there’s no reason they will again. I’m no fan of today’s unions, but unions, not making things, produced those pay gains of yore.
PS: Notice that one point made was that people “like the fact that it’s made in the USA.” I lived through the Toyota/Honda revolution. That sentiment is no substitute for better quality and a lower price.
The cost of production is wages plus shipping
Which means that for this Chinese-owned factory that its own homegrown wages have risen enough to make shipping the cost reduction target. Certainly these things are made by machines and machines that get better all of the time. The machines reduce the need for labor, but often require a higher skilled labor who can run these higher-tech fabrication machines.
The magic associated with manufacturing is an expansion of available jobs that do not need a college degree to get. There aren’t acres of factory floor that can hire these folks any more, but this is a part of the population in serious need of this kind of employment and regularly ignored by government. It is the biggest reason why this is on the table. And why everyone disses NAFTA. Manufacturing also means something for balance of trade which is important depending where we are in the business cycle.
But I agree that a massive investment in infrastructure is an excellent way to jumpstart the manufacturing sector.
Something Ben said way up the thread… “Sanders wasn’t losing him; his supporters were.”
Having looked at reports from all sides, it is pretty obvious what happened… And if a younger volatile first time political contingent were part of PDD, something easily similar could have happened here just because the rules didn’t favor their side. How many of us have yelled at sports referees because we thought them biased? The crises is more about individual volatility, frustration over perceived unfairness, and a super hot temperature outside.
The media searching for anything to taint Hillary’s opponent, has a tendency to blow everything up. it too would be wise to remember this happened in Nevada…
Even Harry Reid is afraid of Nevada…..
Hopefully that puts things in perspective.
It isn’t JUST Nevada.
I understand the system is screwy. It has been for a long, long time. I want it to change, but not as badly as I want gains from the last 8 years to remain intact.
Too many Sanders supporters seem to feel like this is a new thing, made up specifically to help Hillary beat Bernie. They don’t understand (which is fine) and are not willing to understand (which is not fine) that in a democracy, you never get to have everything you want. Half the time you dont get ANYTHING you want. The Bernie or Bust movement is as stupid as the PUMAs (and will probably be as effective)
I see ridiculous memes shared that dont add spit to the conversation, just more misinformation. I hope, once things calm down with this election, all those excited new or reinvigorated voters realize they can still accomplish that platform, it will just take time and constant pressure….. but they will probably share cutesy bird memes and talk about how unfair it is that they cant vote because they forgot to register, or only started paying attention in February.
Hey, my wife is writing in Bernie in the general election. I like his ideas and focus on economic fairness, environment and who the real enemy of average people is. So please be nice to Bernie or I won’t talk my wife out of writing him in