This One’s For You, Kevin
Earlier today I asked Kevin O. to stop turning Delaware Dem’s death penalty post into an abortion post. My comment was brief, but I should have taken the time to explain that his comments were off topic and that he was free to post his thoughts on an open thread. For that, I apologize.
Kevin emailed me saying that my comment sent him a signal that his voice didn’t matter. Now, while I admit I could have taken the time to fully explain staying on topic, I’ll also say that his views on abortion don’t really matter to me. We won’t agree on this, and that’s fine. But only one of us has views that would personally impact others. That said, I’ll give him this forum to express himself.
He did write a blog post…
I will firmly state I am against the death penalty. Like State Rep. Sean Lynn said yesterday, if there is even a chance of an error, than we cannot and should not put a person’s life on the line like that. With that being said, I also oppose abortion. To me, life is life. Yes, the death penalty was put in place to execute the most egregious of criminals out there, but the Bible firmly states “Thou shalt not kill.” Under that line of thought, a fetus is a life just as much as a murderer on death row.
For abortion, I believe that all life has an unfulfilled purpose. I saw a post on Facebook this morning where a woman talked about being raped. She had a child and gave it up for adoption. Many years later, that very same child saved a woman from being raped at a party. I often think about what could happen with children who are not able to reach their full potential. Some don’t have a chance at all. I used to be against all abortion with the exception of a woman who is a victim of rape. I have changed that view in recent years because there are other options. I understand women in those situations are given no choice. But I have no doubt, if even 1% of our most famous inventors, writers, musicians, or leaders were born out of that environment, our world would be a lesser place had they not been born.
There is a difference between the death penalty and abortion – mainly the State doesn’t sentence a person to have an abortion. Abortion is a personal, legal, medical decision between a woman and her doctor. If you don’t believe in abortion – don’t have one. The State won’t order you to – you can, you know… opt out. 😉 (Sorry, I couldn’t resist!)
I get that Kevin feels strongly about this, so strongly that he’s okay with forcing a woman to give birth to her rapist’s baby. That boggles my mind. It also diminishes the brutal reality of rape – it sidelines it and turns the female rape victim into an incubator who loses her voice and autonomy. That isn’t okay.
Tags: Abortion
I just wanted a discussion, not a spotlight! 😉 Thanks Pandora!
Let me state with every fiber of my being, I hate rape. I have known far too many people who have experienced this, and I believe it is one of the greatest violations a person could ever go through. I couldn’t imagine what a person goes through after living through an ordeal like that. And I do take objection to the words “he’s okay with forcing a woman to give birth to her rapist’s baby”.
I think it is very hard to talk about things like this without bringing religion into it. I don’t expect everyone to share my views on this. And I respect what others believe in when it comes to religion. That’s part of what makes America what it is. But when it comes to life and death, I don’t believe the state should dictate any situation where death is okay, whether it is a convicted murderer or an unborn baby.
In the situation with rape, you wrote that it is the “rapist’s baby”. It is not. While the situation that brought that life to being is disgusting, vile and cruel, and keeping or rejecting that baby would be a Sophie’s type choice no woman should have to make, it is still a life. We can argue the merits on when a fetus becomes life, go round and round, and probably never come to an agreement. I believe what I believe and I’m sure others have their own thoughts on this. As I wrote in the other comments on here, science is not absolute about when a fetus is considered a human being, or a viable human being.
I believe the situation with the death penalty and abortion are flip sides of the same coin: it is human beings deciding the value of a life and choosing to end that life. While the families of murder victims go through horrendous and unimaginable pain, the death penalty repeal went as far as it did because many people don’t think the ends justify the means. There is a chance of error and a convicted killer possibly being exonerated. With abortion, many are assuming that life has no value because of where it is at in formation. We have seen in today’s society where a fetus, taken out at 20-24 weeks can survive with today’s medical technology. Does that fetus not have a soul until it is born? I don’t think any of us could possibly answer that. Some may not even believe in the concept of a soul, but I do. You brought up the law Pandora, but forty-four years ago, this wasn’t a law. Laws can be changed, which is the whole point concerning the death penalty. I believe all life is worth keeping. If someone commits a crime, even the most horrendous, I think justice should prevail. But I don’t believe an eye for an eye is the answer.
With abortion it is much trickier in that a person chooses to end that life, whether they believe it or not. And let’s face it, the bulk of abortions are unwanted pregnancies. I am of the belief that if you don’t want life, you better be damn sure you have taken every step possible to not put yourself in a position where you can create life. And please, let’s not turn this into any type of rape situation. I deplore anyone saying “she asked for it”. I have no issue with birth control, ironically enough. Birth control was created to prevent pregnancy. And there are some women who may have health issues where a pregnancy could cause more problems. If it is a matter of life or death, where a woman and the baby would die if the pregnancy continued, than obviously a logical choice needs to be made in that situation.
My point is we never know what the snuffing of a life can cause. I don’t think man should make that decision. An aborted fetus could have become someone who cured cancer or simply lived a mundane life but one tiny fork in the road could have changed another’s life completely. We just don’t know. While the abortion issue is highly controversial, I believe that unborn fetus has just as much right to live as a convicted killer. Life is life.
And I thought I answered Kevin directly concerning why abortion and the death penalty were different in my eyes, and not analogous.
Kevin, you have every right to your beliefs. What you don’t have a right to do is force those beliefs on others.
Which is why I usually stay quiet on this kind of stuff! I don’t think I’m forcing my beliefs on anyone. I am not in a position where I even could. But I also think many laws are created based on someone’s belief, or a collective belief. It is the underpinning of all democracy. There are laws that make complete sense. I respect democracy. I also respect others beliefs. On some issues, I am as progressive as the day is long. On others I am very conservative. When I started my own blog, many assumed I was a dyed in the wool progressive Democrat. I remember talking to John Kowalko during the HB50 era last spring. He was telling someone else, “Kevin and I agree on issues.” I looked at him and said, “Not all issues John!” He said “what issues don’t we agree on?” I am fairly sure this is one of them. This blog would not be in existence if everyone agreed. I don’t think talking about your beliefs is forcing them on someone. If I physically forced those who disagree with me into a room and attempted to brainwash them into accepting my beliefs A Clockwork Orange style, that is something entirely different. Like I said, I opened up this dialogue today, and I own that. I’m sure this ruins any chances I have of ever beating Trey Paradee in the primary later this year…
I think regardless of religious beliefs, men have no business trying to make this decision. Until you can get pregnant you have no right to tell me what I have to do with my body, and I don’t mean just in circumstances of rape.
Agreed, AQC
Since we’ve spent basically all of human history figuring ways to plunder women’s agency (& in many cases their physical bodies) with regards to sexuality, marriage, childbearing, motherhood, etc., I think on the difficult questions with no clear winner based on the preponderance of hard evidence (not feelings or intuition), we error on the side of women’s choice. It’s that simple. I don’t know the answer. Nobody does.
On a side note, since when does someone get special dispensation over hurt feeling? An entire fucking post!
Well, let me be the one to say, Kevin, I’m sure you’re a swell fellow. No offense to you personally. But I couldn’t give a shit about your opinion. Just as I’m guessing you don’t care for mine.
(And everyone better be nice to me. I have Pandora’s email address too, and I will not hesitate to complain.)
LOL! What is this?
BTW, I agree with everything you said above. It’s a woman’s choice.
“Special dispensation”? I don’t think that was Pandora’s intention. It was more like, “Oh, look at what Kevin wrote over on his education blog. Let’s give this some very special attention!” Okay, I think I’m going to shut the hell up now before every woman on the left comes at me with pitchforks. I’m sticking to education… lesson learned…
And Dorian Gray, I may not agree with your opinion but I respect your right to have an opinion!
I had no hand in that. I hope you’re not implying that I did. You know very well that’s not equivalent in any way to what I was describing.
I just take real exception to this idea that as a people we are to restrict somebody’s right based on our opinions or intuitions about what “life” is or isn’t. Moreover I take exception to bitching about feeling brushed off, shunned or made to feel like one’s opinion doesn’t matter. Perhaps it doesn’t. It’s this strange victim mentality and I don’t like it.
Fair enough, Kevin. I have no issue with you holding a different opinion either. I object to the idea that your (or anyone’s) opinion should “matter” just because you cared to share it. And the sense I got from Pandora’s explanation is that there was some aggrieved feelings. That’s just silly victim-mentality nonesense.
Nope, it was all me – shining a light on your brilliant comment! 🙂
@KO “I think it is very hard to talk about things like this without bringing religion into it.”
There’s half of your problem.
“I don’t think man should make that decision.”
There’s the other half. Here is you telling a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body and her own family.
“I don’t believe the state should dictate any situation where death is okay, whether it is a convicted murderer or an unborn baby.”
I agree with this. But how do you get from “should not dictate” to “should dictate”???
What it really comes down to is you shoving your beliefs on others. And that’s what so many find offensive. Note that these are not common beliefs that are shared by the majority, but are actually views of a what is effectively a fringe religion.
I think Kevin has never really thought through the ramifications of his beliefs.
He says he “hates rape” and that he takes “objection to the words “he’s okay with forcing a woman to give birth to her rapist’s baby” but then goes on to say:
That’s what’s called a contradiction. He does think a women should have her rapist’s baby. He tries to get around that statement by claiming the baby is not the rapist’s. Oh, but it is.
LE makes the point: “But how do you get from “should not dictate” to “should dictate”???”
And LE is correct. Kevin’s beliefs dictate an outcome. Where his argument becomes confusing is the idea that the State is dictating who has abortions. It does not. Women (and men) are choosing this legal option – and they’ve been making this choice forever.
I could accept Kevin’s opinion as merely opinion if it weren’t for the endless stream of laws/bills being put forth, by Republicans, restricting women’s reproductive rights. This is far more than a thought experiment. These restrictions are a reality – a reality that only applies to women (and the men that love and support them).
Personal religious beliefs have no place in this discussion. If your beliefs say abortion is wrong, then don’t have one. It really is that simple.
“To me life is life”
I must ask, do you kill spiders, ants, rodents? Do you eat cows, pigs, lamb, poultry, or seafood?
Not all life is equal. Historically, man decided which life was worth living and what we, as women are aloud to put in our bodies. Those days are over.
We, as women decide what goes in our bodies and what we take out. If we want and value your opinion on the matter of our body, we will ask you. I can assure you though, that you as some random male opinion does not matter.
And seriously, the opinion that abortion should not be allowed in the event of rape because we may be killing the next genius?!? You do realize it is the combination of the male sperm and the female ovum? Each individual and random in the creation and outcome of the resulting individual? How many times have you wasted perfectly good sperm that COULD have been instrumental in creating said genius?
LOL! The views do play into the “every sperm is sacred” mantra and that all sex should be had in the attempt to procreate. If not, think of all the unborn geniuses a condom/BC prevented. And that’s one of the arguments against birth control. It’s easy to see how the anti-abortionist get to that point.
It also plays into the argument that women should submit to sex whenever a man wants it. After all, refusing sex could mean denying life to the next genius… or Hitler. 😉
Modern religious arguments about abortion are invariably based on religion’s patriarchal past. The concept of a woman’s right to do anything is alien to the thought system of the mainstream religions.
Knowing where he’s coming from on this, I now feel more secure in ignoring what he has to say about other topics, too.
I’d specifically like to rebut the bullshit about aborting a rape pregnancy being some kind of “Sophie’s choice.” The vast majority –something like 95% of women who get abortions — are relieved, not conflicted, after the procedure. The notion that any but a tiny minority of women who are pregnant through rape would think for more than two seconds before agreeing to an abortion, let alone be troubled to suicide at the thought, is the kind of arrogant bullshit that makes clear this is not a person with decent judgment — indeed, that he’s the sort of person comfortable with telling others what their best path forward is.
While I believe that life begins at conception and therefore am against abortion, I also recognize that I have no right to decide what women do with their bodies and consequently, to paraphrase Colin Powell, I believe that abortion is a decision best left to a woman, her doctor, and her God.
However, because I am against abortion I am fervent believer in any and all means of contraception at any age, as means to reduce unwanted pregnancy. When someone tells me they are against abortion, I usually ask their opinion on contraception such as schools giving out condoms. When they inform me that they believe abstinence is the best solution, I usually inquire what planet they are from because on this planet people have sex once they become physically able to do so.
Pandora, I believe I read somewhere that Hitler was a genius. Fine line huh? just saying. Seriously, with all I just read from Kevin’s comments, my brain hurts too much to say anything else. Have a good night all.
Kevin spends his time (invaluably) pointing out how the Government is misusing its power and resources in educating our kids. I find it remarkable that he thinks this same Government is going to be competent in regulating anyone’s reproductive rights or health.
It’s been awhile…..but seriously 5 kids later……I sum it up with pregnancy is a private matter, and perpetration is a societal matter. Hang ’em high IF there is incontrovertible proof….cameras, recordings, DNA, witnesses etc…
Meanwhile, I’ve yet to meet a zygote, fetus, or baby that came alive, until it took it’s first breath, outside in THIS WORLD. Before then, I don’t care what you named your ultrasound, only a woman’s body and the grace of nature, Pitocin, God, Yaweh, Scooby Doo, or some other power converts that plug into an outlet to become a separate life. Everything else is romanticized until that point. I really think the Eastern European/Ukrainian women coming in to deliver made quite a point….” buy or prepare nothing for a baby until it’s here”. Sure, it may have been “bad luck” folklore, or the reality of perinatal loss in past decades. But, this overzealous pro-life for cake batter has just gone too far. Ain’t no cake until it’s done.
Meanwhile, on the other end. That cake went bad. Time to feed the chickens. Because my family, loved ones and friends, shouldn’t be at risk for ptomaine, or pay top dollar for a crum(b).