Why Is Consent So Difficult To Understand?
con·sent
/kənˈsent/
Noun
Permission for something to happen or agreement to do something.
Verb
Give permission for something to happen: “he consented to a search by a detective”.
Sometimes you come across an article that won’t let you move onto other things. Here’s mine:
MARCH 22–A New York City man flying cross country with his 12-year-old son allegedly put his hand underneath the skirt of a sleeping female passenger and massaged her thigh, an act he later defended by telling the victim, “It’s not like I molested you. It’s not like I stuck my my finger in your pussy or grabbed your tits.” […]
As detailed in a probable cause statement, a few hours into the flight the woman took medication to help her fall asleep. About 40 minutes before arrival at John F. Kennedy International Airport, the woman “woke up… to Zorse massaging her thigh underneath her skirt.” […]
When questioned by investigators, Zorse claimed that he believed the female passenger was “flirting with him, telling him he was attractive and he was a good father,” adding that he felt he had “bonded” with her. While copping to placing his hand on the woman’s leg for “approximately 30 seconds,” Zorse denied placing his hand up her skirt. He did acknowledge, however, that he “could have said something like ‘It’s not like I stuck my finger up your pussy or grabbed your tits,’” according to the probable cause statement.
Here’s what really bothers me about this ugly, illegal incident. Zorse confesses. Easily. He doesn’t see anything wrong in what he did to a sleeping (NON- CONSENTING) woman because he believed “the female passenger was “flirting with him, telling him he was attractive and he was a good father,” adding that he felt he had “bonded” with her.” It’s all about his feelings. Those are his only social clues.
Zorse determines what constitutes flirting. He also determines what constitutes bonding. He even decides that the conversation before the woman fell asleep progressed to the point where he could touch her. He had already granted himself permission.
But even if they were flirting and bonding he never gained her consent for touching. Not that he even begins to understand that. If he did understand consent then he would have never incriminated himself. This, my friends, is part of rape culture. It’s where everything that comes before the assault, battery, rape is taken as consent by one party, and only one party. It’s where this guy gets to put his psychic ability on the table as a credible witness – an “I felt it in my bones” defense. It’s where what she felt didn’t matter, because if she didn’t want it then she would have… What? Been rude? Slapped him? I have no idea. What I do know is that if she had ignored him, refused to chat with him, then she would have gone from an attractive woman to a man-hating bitch in two seconds flat. (In fact, Zorse did just that with his vulgar statement to her after she called him out.) And he still may have groped her. Know why? Because that’s what men like this do. If they believe they’ve bonded with the woman, then non-consensual touching isn’t really non-consensual. If they label the woman a bitch the groping can turn into a punishment, a power play. This guy is a sexual predator because I can’t think of a single reason/excuse to justify his behavior.
And if you read the comments on this article brace yourself for the predictable victim blaming. Apparently sleeping on a plane, or taking medication to help you sleep, is now a no-no for women. Really, the things that women are no longer allowed to do – drinking, wearing “sexy” clothes, sleeping on a plane – is becoming quite ridiculous. We’re rapidly heading towards burqas and family member chaperones for women who want to leave the house.
This woman boarded a plane, spoke with, and maybe even complimented and flirted with the guy seated next to her (a guy whose 12 year old son was sitting next to him, btw), took medication to help her sleep during a long flight, fell asleep, and awoke to a guy massaging her thigh. And his defense is he believed they bonded?
What’s even worse is that our rape culture will provide a defense for Mr. Zorse’s actions. And that’s frightening.
Tags: Rape, Rape Culture, Women's Issues
OK I read the story, then I read the probable cause document (which was painful), and then I read the comments below the story (which was excruciating).
I think I have figured out where you have a problem understanding the inability of these guys to understand the concept of consent.
Property doesn’t have to give consent.
And if you look at it that way it all makes sense!
RAGE.
What does everybody think the guy should be charged with?
And here’s where rape culture is infuriating. All the responsibility is on the woman. Men don’t have to be wary about what could happen if they fall asleep on a bus or a plane, men don’t have to be alert if they’re wearing a skirt and (god forbid) also must go up some stairs, they don’t have to examine all their clothes from all angles to figure out the line between fashion and an invitation, men don’t get catcalled and then have to figure out the correct response that conveys “no thank you” but doesn’t enrage them because you’re a stuck up bitch, the worst thing that happens to a man at a party when he passes out is that he gets sharpie on his face (generally.)
Men’s only responsibility here is not to sexually assault someone, and they can’t handle that ladies. They just can’t help themselves.
ugh.
Puck, I’d assume some sort of variation on offensive touching. or she could sue for battery.
I dunno, V – I’ve never worn a skirt in public.
exactly, so you dont understand the idea that woman are CONSTANTLY on guard at all times because other assholes are gross and think that they can do what they want when they want just because
Yeah, it sounds like offensive touching.
Here’s the problem: Mr. Zorse confessed because he didn’t see anything wrong with what he did. I doubt he’s stupid. He really believed he had a right to touch her and that how he touched her was no big deal, because, hey!, it could have been worse. That’s astounding and points to a huge problem.
My guess is that Mr. Zorse thought he’d never be caught. I notice he didn’t make his move BEFORE she fell asleep.
” That’s astounding and points to a huge problem.”
What’s so astounding about a delusional man? Why does he have to be part of a vast criminal culture, and not just an emotionally malformed idiot?
rape culture is full of emotionally malformed idiots.
That reminds me uncomfortably of the Emeritus Pope claiming a “death culture.”
I think “rape culture” is over the top. I wouldn’t pick through court cases where a woman done a man wrong and claim a “bitch culture,” because that would be totally unjustified.
ah so NOW i get where you were coming from with the stubenville thing.
WTF ???
It just makes more sense now. You don’t think rape culture is a thing (or an overreaction). That makes your mental gymnastics to make those guys not rapists make a lot more sense to me. It gives me context where you’re coming from.
Rape culture exists and is fed into by people who make excuses for rape by, mainly, blaming the victim.
And if you think bitch (slut, golddigger, bitter woman) culture doesn’t already exists then you’re kidding yourself.
No, I think the simplest explanations are the best – men who do women wrong, or women who do men wrong, are responsible for their own failures and don’t represent a criminal culture. Yes, women are often vulnerable to sexual crimes, but that is as old as humanity. Our defense is our system of laws, taboos, and sense of personal decency, which individuals sometimes break as for any crime.
Oh and by the way, the charge was “simple assault.” But note how many times the word “rape” has come up so far, and still counting.
neither of us said this was rape (although i think that was the answer you wanted us to say when you asked that question so we could fight about it) but a simple assault can be indicative of a larger social problem. “women are often vulnerable to sexual crimes” IS rape culture and as you said as old as humanity. this man’s offense touch of a woman because he thought he could is part of that. why can’t we name it? why can’t we call it out in an attempt to fix it? why is this just “one bad apple” ruining it for the rest of men?
so i guess other things (like disproportion race representation in our prisons or concentrations of poor in urban areas) are also just “eh bad stuff happens” and not a result of a larger societal issue?
“why can’t we call it out in an attempt to fix it?”
It’s sort of an overall human predicament. How would you fix it? We seem to have the necessary criminal laws in place, which are already being enforced against those who are caught. Increased penalties? Better mental health care? Education campaigns? Ban pornography? Figure out a way for children to have healthy emotional development?
Puck: You are ignoring that when a woman does a man “wrong,” it rarely involves violence, except those cases in which a battered woman fights back.
When men do women “wrong,” physically threatening behavior is virtually always involved.
In short, false equivalency.
The laws aren’t working.
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates
Awareness and efforts to change attitudes and opinions can help. The fact that these guys don’t even think what they’re doing is wrong is a problem. Deterrance doesn’t work if you don’t realize what you’re doing is wrong. I really don’t understand why this is a problem for you.
It’s like saying why bother trying to help improve poverty, there will always be poor people.
I would fix it the same way we fixed (not completely, by far) other social ills – by acknowledging them and making the behavior socially unacceptable. Gay issues and increased acceptance of gay people is one big example.
Judging individuals by their actions is awesome. Shame it doesn’t exist in reality… unless you’re a white, male mass shooter. We treat them as individuals.
And drop the rape counting. But if we want to count I’m at a big zero for you calling out Zorse’s behavior.
I would call this rape culture:
If you were devising an education campaign about obtaining consent, what would it say? Obviously, “don’t grope unconscious women” would be a big one.
But beyond that ,if you really think about it it is surprisingly difficult – human relationships are murky.
“No means no” is another big one.
you’re right. it’s really difficult.
so we shouldn’t try? we should just sort of shrug and say “oh well, he’s not a good person” when someone decides that they have a right to put their hands on someone?
also rape culture ISN’T just a women thing. Men get raped too. Rape is about power, which is without gender.
You’re not getting it – I AM trying. I’m trying to brainstorm and have a conversation about what that would look like. How do you educate a population on obtaining consent? What are the rules? I mean, I know, but I’ll be damned if I can articulate them in a logical way.
ok. lets go then.there’s actually been a lot of discussion about this lately (even among my own friends) between mothers of sons. How about this points from Zerlina Maxwell:
1. Teach young men about legal consent:
2. Teach young men to see women’s humanity, instead of seeing them as sexual objects there for male pleasure:
3. Teach young men how to express healthy masculinity:
4. Teach young men to believe women who come forward and not to blame the victim.
5. Teach young men about bystander intervention.
and for consent
– what in your state (and in general) IS consent (citing specific hypos)
– what in your state (and in general) IS NOT consent (citing specific hypos)
– if you’re not sure which one it is DON’T DO ANYTHING
or, you know ask her.
Honestly i’d much rather a guy who i like awkwardly ask me what i want to do or back off so I have to intiate rather than a guy i don’t like thinking he’s got the green light.
http://www.upworthy.com/the-shortest-psa-on-how-to-handle-drunk-girls-passed-out-on-your-couch-ever?c=slt1
also this.
this actually isn’t that hard once i started to think about it
“What are the rules? I mean, I know, but I’ll be damned if I can articulate them in a logical way.”
There’s a really easy way, Puck. You let the woman make the first and escalating moves. Let HER be the sexual aggressor. Don’t like that rule? Then don’t be surprised or offended when you are called a sexual attacker.
You know, the vast majority of people negotiate consent without difficulty.
Now I’m laughing because all I’m seeing in my head is that scene from the movie Hitch – the one where he’s teaching the guy how to figure out if the guy will get a good night kiss. His advice was something like… when the guy is saying goodnight he should lean in 90% and if the woman is interested she’ll lean in the 10%. Ta da! Kiss with consent. I can’t believe I’m quoting Hitch. (Also, I don’t think the guy has to make the first move, or lean in at a greater percentage.)
“Then don’t be surprised or offended when you are called a sexual attacker.”
Well that didn’t take long. The only surprise was who it came from.
I know women who expect the man to make the first move, which I think is pretty common. In certain contexts, putting your hand on a relatively innocuous body part is the first step to obtaining consent (one of the first steps, anyway).
And consent IS most often given silently (although I have a lot more research to do before reaching a final conclusion).
I don’t want to live in a world where we need notarized forms to get it on. (note: I am no longer talking about airplane guy who is way over the line). I just want answer the question in the title of this post.
I’m not saying you would BE a sexual attacker — just that if you don’t make any moves, that greatly reduces the chance of misunderstanding.
Here’s the rule: Keep your hands to yourself until hers are on you.
“I know women who expect the man to make the first move.”
The problem is you can’t tell which ones those are ahead of time.
“In certain contexts, putting your hand on a relatively innocuous body part is the first step to obtaining consent. And consent IS most often given silently.”
Not in my world. Of course, I’m counting the sound of someone unzipping my trousers as non-silence.
“I don’t want to live in a world where we need notarized forms to get it on.”
That’s the only world in which you could assure yourself of not being unfairly accused.
“I don’t want to live in a world where we need notarized forms to get it on.”
Actually, that’s not true. I’d probably be in line down at the notary.
After having been on hiatus to earn a living today, I have to say that I don’t think that the whole “consent” thing is that difficult:
1. Consent is an affirmative response to sexual advances, given in unambiguous terms by a woman who is capable of giving consent, and who therefore is not (a) under the age at which consent may be legally given; (b) is not mentally challenged to the extent that she cannot give consent; (c) is not intoxicated to the point wherein she cannot give consent; and (d) is not involved in a power relationship with the person making the advances wherein there is possibly an element of coercion.
2. It is the woman’s right to grant or withhold consent for any reason (regardless of past consent or other presumptions) because she owns her own body.
3. It is the man’s responsibility to verify that consent has been given, and if there is the slightest room for doubt, ask for resolution of the doubt or do nothing. Last I checked, very few guys in history had died from failure to get laid or to massage a sleeping woman’s leg under her skirt.
It can be argued by some males that #2 above gives the woman rights but no responsibilities and that #3 gives the man responsibilities but no rights. This is intentional. Men under no circumstances have any “right” to consent, and since that it true, men bear the responsibility for insuring that unambiguous consent has been given.
“In certain contexts, putting your hand on a relatively innocuous body part is the first step to obtaining consent.”
absolutely correct but clearly the most important word in that sentence is “context.”
“Not in my world. Of course, I’m counting the sound of someone unzipping my trousers as non-silence.”
Don’t worry Geezer, “exchange of money” also counts as consent.
oh man, and Steve WINS THE THREAD!
Of all the things not worth paying for, Puck, sex tops the list.
Consent isn’t most often given silently. I’m really trying to figure out where you’re coming from. It seems like you aren’t envisioning two people in your scenarios. It’s as if you see the woman sitting still, no expression on her face, not participating in any way while the man tries and figures out if he should kiss her. (If that’s the case, then there isn’t consent, btw.)
Also, we deal with consent on a daily basis – whenever we interact with people. When we walk into a room of strangers we moderate our behavior until we get to know people. That is a form of consent.
Steve, there has never been any doubt that a pretty good definition can be constructed in essay form. Now put that on a bumper sticker or a 15-second PSA. Something the target audience can understand.
why does it need to be a bumper sticker? if you’re old enough to have intercouse you’re old enough to read a paragraph.
none of our answers ever satisfy you. and if they appear to you just dont respond or move the goalposts.
Pandora, I’d explain it, but I’m already blushing.
who is this “target audience” you just invented? rapists? young men? old men? bros?
Airplane guy was what – 51 years old? So a public education campaign would have had to start when he was no older than 12. Folks, this is at least a 30-40 year commitment.
and re: Pandy’s question, you LOVE picking apart rape arguments but whenever we ask you to elaborate you demure because I dunno, modesty. so none of us really know.
i know several men in their 50s who managed to not molest sleeping women without a public education campaign
“who is this “target audience” you just invented?”
The rape culture. Don’t you know who the members are?
that you think doesnt exist.
But if the woman is participating (touch for touch, moving closer, etc.) then consent exists for what both of you are doing at that moment. How far it progresses is up to both of you, but if someone pulls away at a certain point, says no, etc. then there isn’t consent to continue, or go further.
Seriously, this isn’t difficult.
what happened to you in your life that makes this so difficult for you to process? it’s like a magnificent blind spot.
Puck, I’m with V, my head is spinning. Do you really not understand consent? Is it really that complicated? Perhaps you could supply an example – step by step.
Something set me off when the post invoked a “rape culture.” Why does every post about a man and a woman have to escalate to rape? Rape is horrible enough without projecting it into every corner.
And then there’s this “magnificent” example of generalization and bias, that went unremarked by anybody but me:
I guess in the end, it really wasn’t worth me saying anything about it. We’ll see it again.
“Do you really not understand consent? Is it really that complicated? ”
We’ve come full circle now. See earlier comments on the topic.
Then supply an example. Here I’ll start you off:
1. Man and woman having a conversation.
2. There is laughing and flirting.
3. Man or woman reaches out and touches other person on the arm, shoulder, hand, etc.
4. Recipient of touch doesn’t say no, or pull away.
5. Recipient of the touch then touches the other person.
6. One of the two holds the other person’s hand.
7. The other one doesn’t pull their hand away.
Can you take it from here?
Steve, there has never been any doubt that a pretty good definition can be constructed in essay form. Now put that on a bumper sticker or a 15-second PSA. Something the target audience can understand.
In my case the target audience was my son, beginning when he was about twelve, and emphasized heavily because he is now six foot one, heavily muscled, with a goofy penchant for physical humor.
He gets it.
But if you want it in a soundbite: “Consent is when she says ‘yes,’ not when you assume she isn’t saying, ‘no.’ And when she’s not drunk, asleep, underage, mentally challenged, or working for you.”
And as far as the term “rape culture” setting you off… I’ll point out that I didn’t use the term in my Steubenville posts. What set you off about those posts? Because you’re arguments are very similar. So, I’m not seeing the words “rape culture” as the problem.
“Do you really not understand consent?”
I know a great many people (men) who do not comprehend the signals. Aside from the binary extremes of “No” and “Yes”, there is wide range of both verbal and non-verbal modes of communication. Of course that could all be avoided if consent (by law or custom) were more explicit, but that’t not the way it is.
As one of those guys, who did not feel confident enough to be able to interpret many of those verbal and non-verbal forms of communication, I’ve always opted for the presumption of “No” and if the woman wanted something other than “No” it had to be clear and unambiguous. Didn’t do much for romance, but at least I didn’t look like an idiot for reading a message where none was intended.
So for me, consent is a pretty firm “Yes.” That’s my understanding and definition of consent.
Hmmm… Didn’t do much for romance, but at least I didn’t look like an idiot for reading a message where none was intended.
What is your definition of romance?
This isn’t a trick question. I think a lot of what we’ve viewed as romance (through movies, books, ads, etc.) feeds into the rape culture. We bombard men with images of masculine sexuality that begins with his strength and ends with her surrender.
Id like to note that was i overgeneralizing on purpose to point out the absurdity of rape culture but since you don’t think it’s real I can see how you thought I was serious puck
pandora, to your example…
consent to hold hands and touch shoulders has been established. Nothing more.
However, if we are going to break human interaction down into legal technical procedure, a precedent of “try first and establish consent or lack of consent based on reaction” has also seemingly been established. By that logic, a bold hand may wander to a buttock. If the owner of the buttock says nothing, is that consent? Is it consent when the “grab back”? (i have a good idea of the answers, not actually asking, just being rhetorical)
Not trying to “shoot holes” in your argument or anything, and certainly not trying to defend the Mile High Groper (TM) Just seeing where your example leads.
If we can, lets try and have an example on PG terms. I can think of nothing less romantic than “I would like to lean and and kiss you now, yea or nay”. (unless you’re at the Westeros room at comicon)
You know, I’ve heard this romance argument before. I heard it when it came to condoms. Perhaps, some men need to work on improving their verbal skills. Having your partner say “yes” can be very romantic.
Ben,
My example was given to show how consent is given. I was pretty clear that it’s given each step of the way, and that either party can pull away or say no and that would end consent.
A good primer on rape culture. Don’t miss the comments section.
Apparently the rules of consent can be programmed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ev1ec0Z0GI
“What is your definition of romance?”
Romance in context of this thread. Not the expression and feeling from an emotional attraction towards another person associated with love.
Okay, but why does obtaining consent not do much for romance?
(Not kidding. This reminds me of the condoms will kill romance argument.)
Thank you cass. The post is fabulous. Please go look at it puck
Fabulous and true.
“Perhaps, some men need to work on improving their verbal skills.”
meaning that the female standard of verbal communication is superior?
No, meaning that people claiming that gaining consent Didn’t do much for romance and that they can think of nothing less romantic than “I would like to lean and and kiss you now, yea or nay” might want to brush up on romantic prose. 😉
I never said gaining consent wasn’t romantic. getting a “yes’ is the best part. im making the case for “consent can be a complicated thing to convey” Yes and No is not difficult, but the ways people “say yes” can vary…. greatly *cough*safeword*cough
I’m seriously not trying to debate “is it cool to grope people because they laughed at your joke…. possibly out of sympathy because your son is with you.”
But if we’re going to have a discussion on consent, I think the fact that the um… physical interaction progression…. is a lot more than a series of “can i do this now?” steps. It might be very helpful to guys who think not objecting to picking up the check means sex later.
It’s really not complicated.
And physical interaction is a progression. It is a series of steps.
Ben im not even sure she was talking to you.
I wasn’t. I was addressing this “consent is complicated and a romance killer” theme that’s been building all day.
“Okay, but why does obtaining consent not do much for romance?”
It’s sort of difficult to explain and not being a man, it is difficult for you to comprehend, but let me try anyway.
Many (most) mean are not as verbally expressive and act less on verbal cues than they do on non-verbal cues. Let’s take the opposite of romance and consider violence. Two guys nose to nose yelling at each other, expletives, yo mama, etc. Are they about to get violent? Could be. But how do you tell. Well guys tell by body language. Balled fists, offensive/defensive posture, yadda yadda. That’s how you know.
Now “romance.” Deep long kiss, tight close embrace, does that mean consent, or does the guy take the next step and see what happens. Each step an escalation, but at anytime, the progression can halt – did that slight pulling back mean no? Do I go forward, wait and see what she does and match her? What? What?
I’d welcome another guy’s take on the subject. Each gender has there own insecurities, so I’m not about to say that guy is worse off, but it is difficult. In short men are from Mars and women from Venus. That doesn’t mean there cannot be a deeper understanding but if women think that man are ever going to completely understand woman AND vice versa, it ain’t gonna happen. And maybe that’s why romance (not in context of this thread) is both exhilirating and agonizing at the same time.
Comment by Geezer on 26 March 2013 at 12:19 pm:
“You are ignoring that when a woman does a man “wrong,” it rarely involves violence”
That belief is as archaic and false as the belief women make better parents therefore they should get the children when couples get divorced. Battered men don’t come forward because of the labels people just like you would put on them.
Women tend to get child custody during a divorce due to a patriarchal society that views child rearing as “womans’ work” I’m all for changing that. Are you joining my feminist cause, William?
Pandora I was a single parent who had full custody of both of my children. Personally I believe children should be placed with the best parent.
I would truly like to discuss the feminist cause more. You might be surprised to discover I’m not the person that I have been portrayed to be. I refuse to be pigeon holed in a sub group of the political party I choose to belong to.
I think you have rather defined yourself in your own words and under your own posts better than anyone else could have defined you
Victim much?
Wow, awesome thread. As a guy, I am inclined to see things from Pandoras prespective. Courtship is an intricate and mutual dance between both partners, when in doubt, let your partner lead. With that said, I understand that from a male perspective, the courtship ritual is an ambigious arena. Sexual mores have changed,and women can be the sexual aggessors, as such no means no, no reponse means no, ambiguity means no. Men need to trust their partners. I firmly believe that a culture of rape exists in our society and it shields men from their awkward sexual transgressions.
People may infer consent from the totality of the circumstances. This is pretty clear.
But People disagree about the required mental state for sexual assault:
(1) The accused knew that the accuser did not consent.
(2) The accused should have known that the accuser did not consent.
(3) Whether the accused knew or should have known that the accuser did not consent is irrelevant.
In general, (1) and (2) are punishable, and (3) is not punishable (except for statutory rape). Our legal system frowns on strict liability, except for administrative crimes like speeding or running a stop light.
Also, a verbal “yes” provides no comfort, as consent can be withdrawn at anytime, and the withdrawal need not be verbalized.
Comment by Aoine on 26 March 2013 at 10:28 pm:
I think you have rather defined yourself in your own words and under your own posts better than anyone else could have defined you
Victim much?
You play the victim card to the max, just like your “source” plays the race card.
Delawarelefty excellent summation.
I have a thought experiment based on an real event. I know a man who woke up his wife one morning by having intercourse with her. That would be clearly rape except that he asked and she gave her permission the night before that he could wake her up that way. In my view, he still raped her. What do you think?
It’s only rape if she wakes up and says “sorry honey, i changed my mind.” Some people enjoy that level of adventurousness and experimentation. If it is a partner you really trust (husband/wife etc) I don’t see the problem. especially in your context of “she gave permission the night before”
I suppose a deeper question would be “did he ask for permission” OR “did she request he fulfill a fantasy of hers by doing that”.
Also, back to yesterday. Sorry for the miss-reaction Pandora, im not too good at reading posts not relating to something ive said. 🙂
No, he didn’t rape her. She gave consent. He said: Can I wake you up with sex tomorrow morning. She said: Yes.
Most marriages have defined, long standing rules for consent. There are acts that are allowed and acts that aren’t allowed. Acts that are allowed are not generally cause for concern, and we’ve all experienced being denied sex due to our partner not feeling well, being upset, etc. That is consent denied.
Now, if you’re friend’s wife had told him to stop that morning, that she was withdrawing her previous consent, and he didn’t then there would be a problem.
So I don’t see anything close to rape here.
“Thank you cass. The post is fabulous. Please go look at it puck”
OK, I did. Fabulous polemics, completely misleading and misrepresenting the Steubenville trial for overheated rhetorical purposes. It is very likely the prosecutors railroaded two guilty boys, but they didn’t prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. That verdict would never fly with a jury.
Yes I now think there is a rape culture, but not the way you mean it. And that article exemplifies it. Like I said, everybody now wants the Steubenville girl to have been raped except me. And a plane full of eyewitnesses is probably the only thing that kept the airplane groper from being charged with rape, backed by “the Internet.”
THAT is our new rape culture.
Stop saying people want her to have been raped. I’m not sure if you don’t want her to have been attacked, or if you just want the attackers to have been found not guilty. If “guilty” doesn’t mean they actually did it, then “not guilty” doesn’t magically mean she wasn’t attacked. This… “It is very likely the prosecutors railroaded two guilty boys” …. I don’t get this at all. You think they are guilty, but because of aggressive prosecution tactics, they should be found not guilty, therefore an attack never occurred?
Puck, your stance reminds me of white southerners who feel that now there is discrimination toward white men.
It’s only fairly recently that western culture, the US included, actually offers support for rape victims beyond trying to punish the rapist after making sure the victim wasnt “asking for it”. We’re just emerging from an era where being raped was something, in addition to all the other emotional and physical trauma, that you also had to be ashamed of and never discuss again. Parts of the world still execute rape victims.
If there is any “over sensitivity” at all, I think it is a just reaction. Much in the same way Southern States with a history of discriminatory voting laws should still have to run it by another party. What these people are doing… Stubenville, this guy… is illegal and obviously seen as “no big deal” to too many people. It has to be made a big deal.
To be fair, I am now seeing new accounts of eyewitness testimony that makes me see the Steubenville evidence as stronger, although the reports of the testimony are still conflicting. And I’m always suspicious of bought testimony. But I’ve always been willing to change my mind based on evidence. I don’t suppose they will ever release a transcript.
By the way, the supposed proof of a “rape culture” is the arguments for imagined consent. The consent arguments in the news recently are clearly a load of crap. But they aren’t a manifestation of a rape culture. They are put forth by desperate suspects who are trying to beat a sex charge, not by representatives of any culture. There is no evidence they actually BELIEVE in it ideologically.
In fact, airplane guy clearly indicated he knew he didn’t have consent in the initial document. Yet he is somehow the newest poster boy for obtaining consent.
The consent defense is a legal artifact created by a defense team, in some cases the only argument left for a defense to offer. It is not a “culture.”
I think the “rape culture” that is being talked about is shown in the town’s fervent defense of these boys.
It wasn’t a measured “innocent until proven guilty, but we are very serious about these charges” like you’ve demonstrated type of defense either. Everyone there went right to slut-shaming and victim blaming….. That leads to this question. What do Steubenville, Pen State, Roethlisberger/Kobe…. all have in common? In addition to an assault, there is also sports worship. Most of the time where something like this happens and the victim gets blamed and the accused gets sympathy, they are on some level, a sports start. That is what is disturbing to me. Consistently, people all over this country defend a player/coach on the team the like to watch at the expense of someone that person may have attacked.
These cases demonstrate, I think, 2 negative “cultures” influencing each other and making a bad situation much worse.
The town was not on trial, and the town’s behavior, awful though it was, is not evidence against the actual suspects. The town’s culture made itself known by non-involved people having second-hand opinions about the case. None of that belonged in the courtroom.
You’re right. It IS , in addition to all the other towns/schools/whatever that have acted the same way, evidence of a different problem. Is the problem too high a national tolerance for sexual assault? is it a problem with sports-worship? (it also happens in the military, the extent of which may never truly be known)
I’m not (is anyone on this thread?) arguing whether or not they are guilty/ should have been found not-guilty based on procedure… I’m saying the town’s reaction is evidence of the “rape culture” being talked about.
I have friends that joke that the husband has sex in his sleep. They think it’s funny. Personally, yeah I think it’s a little rapey and it creeps me out. They’re both down with it though and it’s their marriage, so clearly there’s consent there. I can’t judge.
You have a very limited view of rape culture. Would racism only exist if there was a lynching? Would sexism only exist if a highly qualified woman lost a job to an under qualified man. Here’s one more… I have no idea if George Zimmerman is a racist, but the racist culture that spewed forth around the Trayvon Martin case sure as hell existed.
And… we aren’t discussing putting the town on trial – not one bit, so why you’re going there is confusing. What Ben is pointing out is the town’s attitude, an attitude shared by many around the world is the culture.
Rape culture is bigger than the rapist. In fact, rape culture benefits the rapist.
Here’s more rape culture reading.
And your summation of the airplane guy being lucky that he had a plane full of people/witnesses because that’s probably what kept him from being charged with rape is saying Women lie about rape. You really need to let go of that myth.
Certainly parts of the town rallied around their football players, but I think that was independent of the sexual nature of the charges. I think the town would have defended its players just as much against a non-sexual assault charge. If they had beat up some guy, there would have been people saying he deserved it. It’s a football culture, not a rape culture.
also i’d like to point out that jury trials for juvenile offenses (these boys were not charged as adults) are possible but EXTREMELY rare. it’s not like they had a bench trial because the prosecutors colluded with the court to convict on flimsy evidence.
There’s a big difference between “not wanted that girl to be raped” and “not wanting those boys to be rapists”
also, i really pity the women in your life puck since you have so little empathy and concern for their well being and will BEND OVER BACKWARDS to accomodate people who could possibly abuse them. and i GUARANTEE YOU one of them already has been. statistics wise it’s highly likely. maybe they’re just to ashamed to tell anyone. why would that be? oh wait, yeah probably because they don’t think anyone would believe them. for… some reason.
rape culture is real. and your denial of it (and instead making everyone who acknowleges it what, pro-rape? eager-for-rape?) completely confounds me.
“Women lie about rape”
I’ve never said that, and I don’t believe it. You are dead wrong, and I am pissed that I am the only one calling you out for it.
(I guess I better go back and see who wrote that comment…)
I certainly wouldn’t say a passed-out or sleeping woman lied about something she was unaware of.
I guess it does happen (see Duke) but the vast majority of false rape charges are driven by mistakes either made honestly or pressured by prosecutors. How about prosecution culture? Once they have a suspect, it’s facts be damned.
The Innocence Project lists 169 men who were exonerated of rape conviction by DNA evidence, nearly all of them serving significant prison time. It’s pretty interesting, because you can use that page to view the original reason for their false conviction. Most of them were convicted by prosecutor or defense incompetence or malfeasance, not by lying women. And the Innocence Project is I think the largest list of this type, but by no means the only one. False rape charges are rare, but not rare enough for those guys. Have you ever seen the pitiful footage of them walking out the prison door? I wonder how many are still in prison because DNA wasn’t saved.
constantly bringing up the idea of false convictions for rape perpetuates the idea that they are common. and also the idea that there are false accusations (invoking Duke and since so many cases rest on victim’s testimony). Even if it’s not intentional you’re perpetuating that lie.
if this was a robbery we would never be having this conversation.
“Yes I now think there is a rape culture, but not the way you mean it. And that article exemplifies it. […] And a plane full of eyewitnesses is probably the only thing that kept the airplane groper from being charged with rape, backed by “the Internet.”
THAT is our new rape culture.
Explain that comment. The woman he touched would have had to say he did more than what she said he did. Right? Thank goodness that poor guy had a plane full of witnesses, or else he would have been accused of rape. Right?
Do you ever consider the flip side? (and as usual I’m not accusing anyone of rape. Didn’t accuse this guy, and NEVER accused the Steubenville boys, but keep ignoring that fact) That the plane full of witnesses inhibited his actions? Who knows, and I never claimed it did. But that possibility doesn’t seem to exist for you.
And I’ve never claimed that we shouldn’t look at every rape charge individually. I have discussed rape culture.
The article I was asked to read made a lot of exaggerated and misleading statements (i.e., polemical) about the Steubenville trial, because the author was seeking to make an ideological point. But I don’t think the author defined the rape culture she meant to, not in any objective way. I think the bias toward finding rape everywhere is its own rape culture.
I am responding to points from a lot of commenters here, not always yours. In fact sometimes even I lose track. Honestly, no matter what is said about me I can’t stay mad for more than two minutes.
Going back to the title of the post, the airplane guy clearly understood consent and chose to take liberties with a sleeping woman, and knew he didn’t have consent. But as long as consent is part of the legal definition of rape, defendants will claim they had consent. It’s a legal strategy, not a culture.
You now what’s interesting about the airplane case? His evangelism for his stupid Landmark self-help seminars. I bet he was all pumped up with phony self-esteem (and an overdose of porn). By the way, Landmark is literally the descendant of Werner Erhard and est.
no one “finds rape everywhere” people point out that rape is much more common than society would like to admit and that we should try and fix that.
there’s a difference.
I see I’ve wandered into a corner of feminism better left unexplored by skeptics of either gender.
and now im a crazy hysterical feminist. my thoughts clearly can’t be rooted reality. you’re not a skeptic you’re an apologist. and it’s gross.
*sigh*
Let’s try again. Rape culture is where there are different “rules” for women/girls and if these “rules” are broken then it’s the woman’s/girl’s fault. Not sure if you read the article I linked to above (it’s long), but here’s a part:
This is a part of rape culture, and one prominently displayed in the Steubenville case. It also filled the comment section of the plane guy article.
This thread is exhausting, but interesting!
Pandora and V seem to think every man who doesn’t have a notarized statement of consent, signed both before & after any kind of “touching” (because consent is revocable at any time) is a rapist. If one doesn’t agree w/ them, one is a proponent of “rape culture”.
What does the group think about Steubenville’s former NAACP leader Royal Mayo’s recent comments in support of Ma’lik Richmond? Mayo’s comments are a perfect example of “slut shaming” and “victim blaming”, yet they’ve gotten zero traction outside of the RWNJ news outlets.
Really? Please show me where I said, or implied, that “every man who doesn’t have a notarized statement of consent, signed both before & after any kind of “touching” (because consent is revocable at any time) is a rapist.”
Then you can show me where I accused someone of being a proponent of rape culture.
Go on. I’ll wait.
Mayo’s comments are a disgrace.
You are wasting your time with these people, Pandora. They think with the wrong head and are proud of it.
*sigh*
Sigh away, assholes.
I lived w/ a victim of “rape culture” (and actual rape, along w/ childhood sexual and physical abuse) for more than 20 years. Get back to me when you’ve lived through that. Or get back to me when you’ve lived HER experience. She didn’t handle it well, and didn’t bother to tell me about it until we were legally separated. We eventually divorced. We’ve both since remarried. Her new husband has 20+ yrs. on her…
Pandora, please explain to me why I had to point out Mayo’s idiocy, yet you’ve attacked puck for far less offensive comments.
Pandora, please read every single reply you’ve posted to puck. You’ll find the answer(s) to your question there.
Go on…I’ll wait.
FWIW, I agree that a “rape culture” exists. The exhausting part about this discussion is that (in my opinion) WE ALL AGREE on this point.
I’ll be happy to provide more details if anyone cares. email me at bigty70@mail.com
Take a long walk off a short pier, Geezer. You have no idea where “these people” come from.
“These people” lived w/ a woman who projected her father’s physical abuse on her husband.
“These people” have 3 children w/ said woman.
“These people” have dealt w/ depression, bipolar disorder, and infidelity on an up-close and personal level.
THESE PEOPLE are decent human beings who do not make excuses for rape, mental, verbal or physical abuse, regardless of the sex of the victim.
I”m sorry you had that experience Roland. I’m even sorrier she did.
that being said, you have no idea bout our experiences either, and you aren’t listening.
puck brought up the notary thing, neither of us did. neither of us agreed with him. we both agreed consent can be complicated and nuanced, but if you’re that unsure you should just ask. if she likes you enough to have sex with you, clarification shouldn’t be an issue. puck thinks “rape culture” is people being hypersensitive about rape and seeing it where it isn’t.
i’m glad YOU recognize it exists, but i feel you mischaracterized how i feel about this (and think im an asshole, but whatever). i dont want to argue with someone who agrees with me about this.
FWIW i didn’t know about mayo, after fighting with puck for 2 days i needed to decompress from that story a little.
I’m sorry for what you and she went through. Truly sorry.
As far as…
Pandora, please explain to me why I had to point out Mayo’s idiocy, yet you’ve attacked puck for far less offensive comments.
I didn’t know about the comments and hadn’t seen or heard about Mayo’s comments until you linked to them. As hard as it is to believe I do have a life.
Pandora, please read every single reply you’ve posted to puck. You’ll find the answer(s) to your question there.
I read them last night when you posted your first comment, and I just reread them. I don’t see what you’ve accused me of. Please point out the comments.
I’m trying to figure out where you’re coming from, Roland. My best guess is this post’s content was a trigger because of what you’ve dealt with in your life. I can understand that. What I don’t understand is your first comment on this thread – which I don’t feel is true or fair.
V,
Comment by pandora on 26 March 2013 at 6:21 pm:
It’s really not complicated.
in response to me saying
I never said gaining consent wasn’t romantic. getting a “yes’ is the best part. im making the case for “consent can be a complicated thing to convey” Yes and No is not difficult, but the ways people “say yes” can vary…. greatly
I know, im not puck…. I also disagree with a lot of Puck’s points on this thread. I do agree, however, that there, possibly because of the nature of a blog comment section… ya know where there is no real ability to convey tone, context….etc, seems to be a very narrow standard for what makes you “not a rape culture proponent”
If i may also play “what causes people to react emotionally”, I think this is such a serious and highly emotional topic, (understandably) that if a person doesn’t hear not only something they agree with, but it isnt said they way they might say it, there is a reaction. For example, I goofily said that specifically asking for permission each time you want to “move things along” could be unromantic (assumedly because you would have to move your lips which might be happily against your partner’s) Suddenly I need to work on my verbal romance skill. Don’t expect people to give in and agree if you’re going to look for something to “hit back” at them on.
First, Ben, when you questioned my comment I answered by saying it wasn’t directed at you. You even said: “Also, back to yesterday. Sorry for the miss-reaction Pandora, im not too good at reading posts not relating to something ive said.” So, I’m confused by where you’re coming from now and how that “seems to be a very narrow standard for what makes you “not a rape culture proponent”
As far as the romance thing. I even added an emoticon when clarifying my first statement. I said: No, meaning that people claiming that gaining consent Didn’t do much for romance and that they can think of nothing less romantic than “I would like to lean and and kiss you now, yea or nay” might want to brush up on romantic prose. 😉
What’s confusing me is that in both cases you cited you received clarification. In one case I wasn’t clear and in the other you misunderstood. Notice your word “goofily” above. My response was in the same vein and when I realized you had a problem with it I added the emoticon to demonstrate humor. Obviously, that wasn’t enough.
well, I went back and looked at the exchange and I honestly didnt see HOW it wasnt, at least in part, directed at what I was saying.
At first I just assumed I was wrong, and apologised, now im not so sure.
But all of this reinforces my assertion that a lot of this, what looks like anger sometimes, comes from a combination of not getting sarcasm, snark, joke and thie highly emotional nature of this particular discussion… (or guns, Israel, abortion) Clearly, I still must be missing something in that exchange way up the page, but I’m a pretty smart guy and cant be the only person who misinturprets what people type in a comment box. I wonder how many other fights are just the fault of this discussion format.
The sad part is, after all of this, I dont think there is any more mutual agreement, or even understanding about what can constitute “consent”
We all (unless there are some baggers here) understand that consent can be given or revoked at any point (other than “after”, of course) We all agree that any form of sexual contact at all requires clear consent. I think there are different understandings of what “clear consent” can entail, and that’s where the problem is. if only we could actually talk about that without instantly calling each other names or assuming the person is a prude/feminazi/rape apologist/pig.
“if only we could actually talk about that without instantly calling each other names or assuming the person is a prude/feminazi/rape apologist/pig.”
The same could be said of many topics. It is why we don’t/can’t talk about race, for example. And even when such conversations are possible, there is the “you are one of..whatever…and can’t relate or feel my pain” card.
Such conversations could actually promote understanding if there didn’t seem such a need to play gotcha. I sometimes think we are getting better at having these discussions, but certain topics still are apt to have a very short transition from discussion to outrage.
Now you’re not sure, Ben? Why? I’ve now cleared it up two times – once right after it happened and this morning. And if you look at my earlier comments you’ll find me saying (consent is a series of steps, it’s not difficult) a LOT.
But you know what. I’m done explaining – and apologizing, and it’s interesting how when Steve Newton claimed “consent isn’t difficult” or when Geezer said, “There’s a really easy way, Puck. You let the woman make the first and escalating moves. Let HER be the sexual aggressor. Don’t like that rule? Then don’t be surprised or offended when you are called a sexual attacker.” where was the outrage/confusion?
Geezer clarified that statement, but maybe you’re still unsure. Oh wait, you were never unsure about that! And then Roland enters and makes up stuff I supposedly said. Of course, when asked for proof… crickets. And the person who brought up the idea of a notary was puck. Not me. Not V. As V said, we never even commented on the notary thing.
And I’ll reread my comments, but I don’t think I called anyone a name. I stated my definition of consent and how it was obtained. Again and again and again. And I’m beginning to wonder if some men (not you, Ben! Sheesh, don’t want to go down that path again.) pretend to not understand consent.
But here’s what gets me. Two women on this thread spoke about rape culture and certain men called them out while ignoring comments by other men that were exactly the same or stronger. Why was that?
Ben this isn’t about you and you know it, i dont know why you’re trying to elbow in on the side you’re elbowing in on
i’ll just say that Ben and I know each other IRL and had an intelligent and nuanced discussion on this issue via fb chat as the thread was going on. I don’t really know what he’s going for here.
and puck started this fight because he wanted to have it when he asked about what charge the plane guy (I KNOW, i can’t beleive this thread started with plane guy) should have gotten.
BOTH the ladies (at least the people here that i know to be ladies) said some degree of offensive touching (which is a low form of assault here in DE) and that’s what it ended up being (simple assault).
Puck wanted us to say it was rape, we wouldn’t give it to him, but then i pointed out that i could tell that was the fight he wanted to have and we were off.
@puck
But as long as consent is part of the legal definition of rape, defendants will claim they had consent. It’s a legal strategy, not a culture.
1. I am unsure how else to define rape except as non-consentual sexual activity/intercourse. Perhaps you could explain to me what other term could be used.
2. The fact that people accused of certain crimes fall back on certain defenses (accused rapists say, “She wanted it” or “I thought she consented” and stand-your-ground killers claim “he was menacing me”) is in fact totally beside the point with regard to the existence of particular cultural values. Part of the reason that such a claim is often made is not because accused rapists think other men will really believe it, but because they believe it will resonate on the level of “she had it coming to her.”
In a society that puts up with political leaders of any party who discuss “legitimate rape,” the argument really is not about consent, it’s about what can be made to pass for consent and still allow certain men to do whatever the hell they want to the women that they really believe on some level should be their inferiors (at best) or their property (at worst).