Gentlemen, May I Have Your Attention
On Friday there was another debate over gender specific terms. I would like to take this opportunity to give you the female perspective on this issue, and, perhaps, engage in a little consciousness raising.
First, saying a female “has balls” is not a compliment. It is a way to say that a female has achieved the ultimate honor of being, or acting, male. It says that she has somehow crossed gender lines, abandoned her own sex for the better, stronger sex.
Before I continue, allow me to confess that I have used all these gender terms in the past. I never liked them, and was always quick to point out how unfair they were to women, but use them, I did – very effectively. It seems male genitalia is very vulnerable to words. It comes down to this: Want to insult someone? Call them a female body part.
But a few years ago I stopped cold turkey. My daughter entered middle school and overnight I went from participant to observer, and what I saw (and heard) visibly upset me. When these words were first tossed her way she was hurt and confused and embarrassed. We spent many hours discussing language. Little by little these conversations tapered off – not because we resolved anything, but because she was becoming accustomed to the words.
Talk about a wake up call. She was following the same path I, and almost every other female, had taken. Her initial reaction to these words was correct, but society told her that calling someone a pussy was acceptable and the same as calling them loser, and that saying someone had balls was a compliment. Stop making a big deal over nothing, she was told, and when continued to argue she was told to lighten up (or to stop being a bitch), they were just words.
They aren’t just words. They are insults to women. Saying Hillary Clinton has balls is not the ultimate compliment. It is an insult. What we’re saying is she acted like a man and that’s a good thing. Translation: Thank goodness, she didn’t act like a woman! What a disaster that would have been!
I realize a lot of men reading this are shaking their heads and thinking I’m over-reacting, some might even think I’m emotional or hysterical, but I’d say those thoughts are coming from the position of male privilege – yeah, I went there.
Let’s go here next: Men don’t get to decide what offends women. Funny, how we accept this rule, and play by it, when it comes to other groups. As liberals/progressives we are the first to fight against language we consider racist or bigoted. We flipped out when anyone called President Obama boy. We don’t tolerate the N word against blacks, the S word against Hispanics, etc.. We will delete and ban commenters who call gays the F word. But if you want to call a woman a bitch or a man a pussy… well then, that’s just fine. And if you say that a woman or man has balls then I need to chill out and be honored.
Everyone might also like to remember that there was a time when racist and bigoted words were commonly accepted in society and that the people who were offended by them were told they were over-reacting. Try throwing those words around in a group full of strangers today.
So, what happened to make racist and bigoted words unacceptable in society?
We happened.
We could happen again.
Tags: sexism
Standing ovation!
AMEN!
That’s it’s commonly used is a poor excuse. You’re on notice – we just told you we don’t like it. Can you quit?
Let me help with some suggestions: brave, bold, courageous, competent
Instead of “pussy” use cowardly, craven, scaredy-car, wimpy
I know you can do it.
Alright. I apologize.
Yeah, but saying, “That Hillary Clinton, she’s sure got ovaries!” just doesn’t sound right. 🙂
Well said.
I pimped this post on Twitter.
This post wasn’t directed solely at you, DD. Apology graciously accepted. Thank you. The women of DL (contributor and commenter) have been complaining and pointing out this language for years.
I think agreeing to water down the expressiveness of language is cowardly and craven.
I’d really like to get away from gender-specific words. I don’t care for she’s got ovaries. Just say she’s brave or bold or courageous.
I think agreeing to water down the expressiveness of language is cowardly and craven.
And I think you’re kidding, but, then again, I tend to get you! 😉
I got this link from Twitter: Balls
I chuckle with you and anon, LG, but I know you’re paying attention.
I feel like such a boob.
Um… my comment was supposed to show up after LG’s.
Re: “Standing ovation”: Why are there no standing spermations?
OK guys, so from now on when we say “cowardly” or “bold” we’ll know what we really mean (wink).
I am half serious. Unlike racial slurs, the P and B words actually have a scientific basis. Testosterone or lack thereof is equated with physical strength and boldness.
Our culture and our language has integrated this scientific fact and extended it to refer to moral strength (or its opposite). Asking for that to stop is going against thousands of years of culture and language. It is a rather obvious analogy that probably cannot be eradicated no matter what.
I think it is enough to ask for and accept that people limit use of those terms. An outright ban on a word is itself offensive and is a sign of brittleness and out of control political correctness.
Just like cursing, the P and B words should be reserved for moments when that exact impact is desired, and not overexposed.
There are moments when nothing replaces calling a guy a “dick,” and I am not offended. There are also moments (very few) when nothing replaces calling someone a retard… I have retarded family members, and I am not offended.
It all depends on context.
Sperm aren’t really that impressive are they?
Balls/pussy reinforce women weak/men strong
Nice post, pandora. It would be nice if DL removed the “F” word for gays from your about page, too.
Re: “Standing ovation”: Why are there no standing spermations?
Internet rule #34:
“If you can imagine it, there is porn of it.”
I have met some strong pussies in my day.
Balls/pussy reinforce women weak/men strong
This is scientifically true. There are exceptions, just like there are cold days in global warming. Don’t be a hormone denier.
I can see the objection to extending it to refer to moral strength. Men and women can be equally ferocious competitors.
For example, Nancy Pelosi is bold, while Harry Reid is craven.
But it isn’t scientifically true to the discussions we are having here. No one (mostly) isn’t talking about the WWF or Olympic deadlifting contests. This is politics and *that* is a learned behavior.
ps.
Awesome post, Pandora! And thank for for saying this.
Well… I see that this issue is consigned to joke territory.
All racist and bigoted words are rooted in history, if not science, and have been around for a long time… so I guess that makes everything okay?
And, just to be clear, I have not, in any way, shape or form, called for a ban. I have called for some consciousness raising, but I guess that’s just silly. And just because words have a scientific/historical meaning doesn’t make them okay.
Why can’t you guys see that? When you say a woman has balls you aren’t addressing her physical build scientifically – so let’s throw that BS reasoning in the trash heap where it belongs. It’s like saying, “I only called you a WOP because a lot of Italians arrived in the USA With-Out-Papers. It’s historical.”
I think the guys who are using the P and B words in a way that is derogatory to women, aren’t posting on DL. But I could be wrong.
anon,
You’re missing the point. I know that most everyone is not using those words specifically to insult women. The point is that it is derogatory to women because it reinforces the idea that men are the most desireable thing to be. By the way, “strong” has more meaning than can lift the most weight on a bench press.
Again, anon, you, and others, don’t get to decide what’s offensive to women.
Seriously, why is my post over the top? Is what I’m saying so unreasonable as to be laughable?
Many of us rose to MJ’s defense yesterday, pointing out that, as a gay man, he had more standing when it came to the civil union bill. Why is that argument okay (or is it?) but when a woman points out something that offends her we’re back to the same old arguments (with a dash of science to validate our opinions) I listed in my post.
dick= something no one wants to be called…
dick= something I call people regularly
dick= something Im not ashamed of having
There are guys posting on DL justifying the use of the P and B words with *science*. And rather avoiding Pandora’s point with that bit of deflection.
I wanted to google for articles by women discussing use of these terms, but then I thought better of it.
You know… guys saying they’re okay with being called a “dick” is just another way of telling women to chill out and that they are the final arbiter on what’s offensive. Or perhaps it’s more of chill out. It’s a guy thing.
I’ve actually used these terms (cojones is typical for me), but the fact that I’ve used these terms doesn’t make it right. Which is also part of P’s point here.
I’ve decided that they want to miss the point. They are very attached to these words.
Gentlemen, do me a favor. Show my post to your wives/girlfriends, female friends, daughters, or mothers – without comment from you – and listen to what they say. I’ll trust you to report back honestly.
Sheesh, I didn’t say all men should be castrated. I said we should be aware of how certain words affect women. But, perhaps, that was a bridge too far…
“I’ve actually used these terms (cojones is typical for me), but the fact that I’ve used these terms doesn’t make it right.”
But it does make it slightly hypocritical for you do admonish other for using them.
I think people have a right to be offended by whatever offends them. If your request is that the men folk around here who consider themselves liberals stop using them, that is an acceptable request. Im in no way telling anyone what to be offended by, but insults are insults for a reason.
Think about the insults that are “ok” around here “old white man” “teabagger” “republican”.
They are all meant to highlight that a type of person is bad and it is not ok to be like that.
They are very attached to these words.
This is also scientifically true.
Now I AM just messing with you 🙂
I admitted my hypocrisy in the post, as did Cassandra in her comment.
This post depresses me and, at the same time, sheds quite a light on the situation.
And, Ben, if “insults are insults for a reason” then have at it. If you think a racial minority or a gay person deserves to be insulted then use the words available to you to insult them. If you won’t use those words… ask yourself why.
“Gentlemen, do me a favor. Show my post to your wives/girlfriends, female friends, daughters, or mothers – without comment from you – and listen to what they say. I’ll trust you to report back honestly.”
girlfriend is a very strong and independent woman who makes more money than me. (we’re both fine with that)
couldn’t care less about B/P comments. She IS a welder with a foul-mouth… not very “lady-like” but something she is proud of.
I am being totally honest.
Wow, there sure is a lot of deflection going on here. Pandora really hit a nerve. Here’s the lesson: multiple women have just told you they find the use of these words in these contexts offensive. What are you going to do about it?
There are certainly insults that are off the table. As i said. This is your blog and your rules. I honestly dont see how “man, that guy has balls” is even the same ballpark as “why are you being a kike?”.
But is “i guess you men just dont get it” really the right thing to say?
multiple women have just told you they find the use of these words in these contexts offensive. What are you going to do about it?
Not use the words in the presence of those women. I’ve already started.
Obligatory Steven Wright:
“If a man speaks in a forest, and no woman is there to hear him, is he still wrong?”
no nerve struck. Women I have respect for raised an issue we disagree on. There is a discussion being had about it. how did you hope this would go? Im also guessing my comment about the dems “growing a pair” helped ignite this, so i am…. rather than being a wuss (is that ok?) and shutting up, am staying engaged in the discourse.
But it does make it slightly hypocritical for you do admonish other for using them.
It is hypocritical only if I decided that I was an exception to the rule. It is hypocritical if I decided to demand more thoughtful behavior from you than I’m willing to try for myself.
The argument here isn’t for anyone to be *perfect* it is for the folks here to think about their words and stop reinforcing silly stereotypes. We spend a decent amount of time here lamenting how the MSM can take up wingnut language and frames in order to make them normal. So we do know how language works. There’s no reason not to try to make better use of said language and top transmitting value judgments in terms of gender.
May I suggest Cockney rhyming slang?
Growing a pair = “Showing some hair”
Balls = “Niagara Falls”
P**y = “Hussy” – no wait…
AGAIN, I’ve have made No Rules here. I simply told you how those words make me feel. Other women have said the same on this thread, and what do we get? Somehow I’m censoring men and making them tip toe verbally. Neither one displays that you heard a word I said.
Also…
I honestly dont see how “man, that guy has balls” is even the same ballpark as “why are you being a kike?”.
You’re correct. You don’t see. I find both phrases offensive. But you’re also correct that they aren’t in the same ballpark because society has moved one of those statements firmly into the offensive category – which I’ll point out wasn’t always true for that phrase.
“Somehow I’m censoring men and making them tip toe verbally. Neither one displays that you heard a word I said.”
well, you are offended by the use of that laungauge. it is my intention to have discussions when i comment here and not offend you, or any other contributor if i can avoid it… You make this blog avaiable to people like me to vent on and i want to show my appreciation by honoring your wishes. (i dont care if i offend t-bags… i’ll let someone else tackle that irony)
So, yes. Your stated disapproval for that language plus my desire to be on good terms with everyone here will result in my watching what i say. I’m sorry THAT (not if) i offended you.
We are not going to agree on this, and im probably being an idiot-man for continuing to argue… but how often do i get to disagree with you? 🙂 gotta make the most of it
Of course we’re not going to agree on this. I’m asking you to think of giving up behavior you like.
I love you, too, Ben! 😉
Let me weigh in as I’m just coming aboard.
When I want to call someone a “boob” it’s easier for a “hunt’n pecker like me to just type BOOB.[and please don’t infer by that idiom I may some sort of “Hilly-billy homosexual]
The alternative is: single protuberance from an adult females thoracic region.
I think the point is that suggesting boobs are something one should strive not to be is offenseive to women.
Also, dont ever suggest boobs are anything less than awesome.
“I’m asking you to think of giving up behavior you like.”
just like a woman 😉
Calling someone a “pussy” for acting scared and sheepish is comparing him to a cat, not a vagina. Someone is a pussy is they act like a scared cat. Same characteristics.
It doesn’t make any logical sense to call someone a vagina. Matter of fact, considering how guys always want access to one, it should be a complimentary term.
With that being said.. I think this whole conversation of offense is an exercise in overthinking things.
I don’t find name calling offensive. It’s childish. The real insults, to me, are personal in nature. I was offended when someone accused me of a gender double standard at work. I was truly offended, and pissed off for days.
Someone calling me a prick.. nah.
the plot thickens
This is turning into another he said/she said.
The repukes seem to have a problem with the world gay! In fact they met to discuss what other words they could use because the word gaye has entered modern public discussion, making homosexuality ok. they have come up with several words to try to dissuade the public from using gay. Their gay bashing has turned on em. Perhaps Sarah Palin would have some lovely very descriptive words, or perhaps the gay bashers Santorum and Trump. This should get interesting.
I saw this anon.
Being mostly religious types I would think they would go to the Bible,where all their questions on morality are asked AND answered.
“Sons of Sodom” for the men?
Not being well versed in the Old Testament, I failed to come up with an alliterative phrase for lesbians.
So I retreated to the classics where “Sisters of Sappho” came to mind.
Then I remembered I saw some preacher on TV late one night while waiting to shove-off from New Orleans.
Bother’s and sister’s, he was going ON about the GAYS!
And damn if I don’t remember him using those two phrases.He even got me TUNED in.Course, it was shit he was slinging.
Just goes to show you: You ain’t got a thing if you ain’t got that sling.
I see multiple posts saying how wrong we are and the little women should just pipe down.
Liberal men have just as much attachment to their privilege as conservative men, and more to stereotypes of women about sexual access. They’re first in line to explain porn is “victimless crime” for example.
Just be willing to be second-class citizens, girls, and we’ll let you post. Of course, if you can’t play with the “big boys”…
Yo, sweetheart, above me…..
I’ll play with your ‘big boys’and raise you a ‘big girl’ any day.
you will wish you took your toys and went home.
lets face it, I read you post several times and still can not figure out if you are referring to Liberal men or conservative men that ‘explain porn is “victimless crime”.
If this is an expamle of your literary prowess, I would give it up and quit while you can.
The “girls” on this blog can out write, out think and out manuver you everytime.
I call to mind the lyrics of that Bill Joel song – “she’ll carelessly cut you and laugh while you’re bleeding”
But feel free – keep posting, if you are a masochist. I have not sucked the life out of anything all day.
let me just say that if “anonforthis” was a real man, he would at least use his real handle.
“They’re first in line to explain porn is “victimless crime” for example. ”
And what point exactly are you trying to make with that? Liberal men consider porn a victimless crime?
Ladies, please tell me you see the difference between tactless well-meaning jerks like me, and genuine pigs like this dude.
Of course there’s a difference, but when you guys use those terms you blur the lines and give them cover.
@Ben – That is precsiely one of the reasons I took a shot at him – tarring other men for his own failings, in a manner that is actually unintelligible.
@pandora, I could not agree more
and yes Ben, I do see the difference, guys like you get a pass, guys like that, get what’s comming to them.
I’ve read this thread several times, without figuring out what I’d like to say. Nothing polite, mostly.
But thanks for trying, pandora.
Mr Shields obviously lives on another planet:
No, Mr Shields, it is a term meant to convey the image that the man called a pussy is weak like a girl, and everyone knows that’s what it means, at least what it means here on earth. That’s why “wussy,” and “wuss” were developed, so it could be used without being considered a reference to women; such would never have been done if it really referred to cats.
Maybe I don’t use it on the internet, but I can assure you that such characterizations are used by the men at work, including me.
Skippertee wrote:
It’s an old internet joke that if you talk about a gaggle of geese and a murder of crows, wouldn’t it be a lick of lesbians. 🙂
Pandora,
Reading this in my normal lurker mode, I’m struck by how much I agree with you, especially now that we are raising teenage girls two and three in our household.
A feminist would suggest that the reaction you are getting is the result of challenging the patriarchal assumptions of modern language: all of a sudden we have to jump through hoops to make your observation inconsequential.
I would prefer to recall a “joke” that an African-American friend told me one time, with no trace of a smile on his face:
Question: “When does a black man become a nigger?”
Answer: “When he leaves the room.”
Let’s try replacing those terms with woman and bitch (or worse) so we can start seriously grappling with this issue.
Let’s also recall that it was this website that, during the Obama-Clinton primary run, gleefully ran a picture of the “Hillary Clinton nutcracker” novelty and contemplate the social (or even Freudian) significance of “ball buster.”
Having said all that, I’d like you to know there is at least one other household in which we have discussed this, and reached exactly the same conclusion.
Thanks for commenting, Steve! Amazing how seeing this stuff through the eyes of a parent of a teenage girl triggers a gut check. And while I never liked this sort of talk I sure didn’t worry too much about it – and even used these terms in conversation.
But there’s something about hearing a young girl question what is being said to her and realizing that she is absolutely correct in being confused, embarrassed and upset.
I hated having to have the “balls” conversation, but I’m glad I did because as I was trying to explain to her that “having balls” was saying someone was strong, didn’t back down, etc. I stopped talking. Two sentences in I realized I was dishing out a load of BS to a twelve year old girl.
Dana, Yes, I live in the real world where we really don’t have time to sit around and make up things to be offended by. This discussion is, at best, academic.
I’m not an English major, nor anything resembling one. I don’t claim to sit atop a tome of ancient knowledge explaining all in the world.
I’m just me. A glorified 30-something pizza maker. I’m assuming the derivation of the term pussy to wussy or wuss is for polite reasons. A calmer version of the cuss word so it is gentler for a child’s ear. Derived out of political correction, if you will.
Which supports your theory. Whatever. Doesn’t matter to me.
I’d love to hear your thoughts, Heragain.
What about positive stereotypes like “trust a woman’s intuition”. This is implying women have a 6th sense about things… something men dont have. Not that it bothers me, mind you. You people give birth, take 5 more senses and unlimited orgasms. you deserve it.
There are also male-negative sayings. “Obama kicked paul ryan in the balls” Here we are dealing with 2 men, so they both, indeed have balls. When ya give a man a shot in the pills, you render him helpless, in pain, and humiliated. An apt description i think.
if anyone else feels like beating this cremated horse…..
Unfortunately, we live in a highly patriarchal world where most world languages, and thus our inner cognitive dialogs, are imbued with sexism and patriarchy. The more people become conscious of this and how language is used to oppress and stereotype men, women, and those in between, the better off we’ll all be.
It will be a better planet when HIStory becomes HERstory, too.
Thanks for the consciousness-raising post, pandora.
I’m still sexually outraged that Castle was not wearing his “man pants”.
I’m somewhat amused that Geezer didn’t chime in to rant on the Billy Joel lyrics that Aoine posted. Geezer is a notorious Billy Joel hater.
IMHO, Aoine should examine the lyrics (in their entirety) to the song she quoted. That song is more about the man’s love and weakness for the woman than it is the woman’s strength.
LOL – I have examined the lyrics
“its about the man’s love and weakness for the woman”
and what is it exactly that makes the man weak??? Oh yea, the woman..
so I would say its about a woman’s strength..by default or not – whether she know it or not
and IMO a woman who knows her power is a woman who never has to
prove her strength
Yeah, Aoine, we know you’re strong…..but odor isn’t everything.
Ha-ha-ha-HA-ha…Ha-ha-ha-HA-ha…HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!
Just kiddin’.
“Want to insult someone? Call them a female body part.”
Billy Joel is a vulva.
Isn’t that spelled “uvula”?
really?
I actually agree with anon; it’s all about context. I think the PC police (ahem…almost all of whom are on the left) have ruined humor in this country. I think you should be able to use just about any word if you’re not being hateful. I miss being able to call my husband a retard in public. And, let’s face it, that word was removed from the lexicon only because it offends the parents of developmentally disabled kids, not the kids themselves.
Translation — this used to be a pretty fine country when healthy white people could get our amusements from everyone *Not Us*. How dare the *Not Us* crowd encroach on our amusements at their expense and try to decide for themselves what they should be called?
Really, gang, this is the only complaint about Political Correctness as it comes from the wingnuts — it just circumscribes their ability to be better than someone else. A thing that they desperately need.
“I think you should be able to use just about any word if you’re not being hateful”
what words cant you use, and who gets to decide that? If someone is offended by something you say, no matter the intent, you are wrong and should apologize. That should be the rule.
I mean PLENTY of harm when i say “teabag”. I INTEND it to be offensive to the baggers. I’ve said a billion that i take joy in the fact that, at long last, there is a hateful slur that actually offends “crackers”. It’s what they get for turning “liberal” into a dirty word.
Just dont hide behind “oh i didnt MEAN it to be offensive to THOSE people”. Insults are meant to be insults for a reason.
Yes there is a difference between Rush Limbaugh…. and we’ll say.. Seth Macfarland…. Hate VS Humor and all. Still, if someone is offended, the “well you’re too sensitive” defense is for pussies.
It’s hard enough remembering to put the toilet seat down, and now this?
@Skipper – “remember, a fox smells his own stink – first…”
Dominique, a quick story.
growing up in the 90s, I used the “r” word like everybody else. A lot of my friends still use it. I dont. Here’s why:
I volunteered in college at the Mary Campbell Center, a place where adults with developmental disabilities live. My buddy was a woman in her 60s who was disabled. We used to watch tv (jeopardy/wheel), go on walks, and talk about the news (she always knew stuff before I did)for 4 years. ONE TIME, I slipped and called something retarded. I swear to God the look on her face after it came out of my mouth (it was as if i was trying to grab it and pull it back in as soon as it hit the air) made me never want to use it again. It doesn’t just hurt the parents, and using it with friends just wasn’t funny enough to risk seeing her hurt like that again.
What about being “pussy whipped”? The power of the poon compels you!
pussy whipped is supposed to be an insult.
“Ha Ha, you’re getting laid and do nice things for your girlfriend/wife haha!”
this is all great but (and as we approach a religious holiday) I’d like to remind you, that had Eve not eaten the apple we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
unfortunately the very first woman on the planet ruined it for all women.
so, don’t go blaming men for saying you have balls.
Blame Eve
That reminds me of a classic joke.
“I’m lonely” Adam tells God in the Garden of Eden. “I need a companion.”
“Ok,” says God. “I have the perfect mate. She’ll cook, clean, be there for your every need. She’ll nurse you back to health when you’re sick and she’ll be a perfect mother to your children.”
“That sounds great,” Adam said. “What’ll it cost?”
“An arm and a leg,” said God.
“Hmm, that’s a little steep” said Adam. “What can I get for a rib?”
Ha! Oldie but a goodie!
To the post – It’s all context. But what I cannot stand is the self-entitlement of certain folks who claim ownership of certain words. That, my friends, is bull. But like most others here, there are words I’d never use because of the pure hate associated with them.
But with that said, If I call someone, who thinks the Ryan plan is the bestest thing ever, retarded, and the first thing you think of is handicapped kids, well that’s your own mind taking you there and it’s your effing problem.
I’m fine with my mind calling Paul Ryan supporter retarded, if in fact, you call him retarded. at least the person I’m thinking of in particular
As the parent of a special needs child, I strongly object to the use of the word “retarded.” Its referent is only one population: people like my child. However, words like “dumb” or “stupid” have widely distributed referents and, thus, are not offensive.
Thanks for proving my point, Cassandra. Big ol’ bucket of sanctimonious misery spreading your contempt like weeds in a pretty yard. It’s all about you, sweetie. Whitey’s out to get you. Oy.
I’ll leave you all alone to stew now.
Wait…is that offensive? You know, because stew is made in a kitchen and use of the word ‘kitchen’ may remind women of the 50s when they weren’t allowed out of them. And segregation was the law of the land.
Oh, God. I’m sorry. I’ve offended someone. Again.
Except that the sanctimonious misery here is yours — because you can’t have your fun at other peoples’ expense without those other people calling you on it. And you can tell that you’re the one with the sanctimonious misery since I certainly didn’t accuse “whitey” of being out to get me. This kind of bullshit projection is typical of folks who can’t quite come up with an argument as to *why* — exactly — that, say, “retards” should be AOK with the fact that you call your husband that. And other people have been here specifically talking about how wrong using that term is.
But all you can do is accuse me of thinking that “whitey” is out to get me. You are the one with the sanctimonious misery here and it is a pathetic sanctimonious misery — because you can’t even manage to deal with the specific arguments sent your way.