Why We Won’t Be Considering Arizona Universities
It’s college search time in the Pandora household, and while we compared various universities by programs we didn’t expect to have to factor guns into the equation.
Arizona House Bill 2001 which was filed mid-December would allow faculty to “possess a concealed firearm on the grounds of a community college … a provisional community college … or a university … if the faculty member possesses a valid permit.”
A second bill, House Bill 2014, introduced in late December would effectively stop the governing board of any university, college or community college to “enact or enforce any policy or rule that prohibits the possession of a concealed weapon by a person who possesses a valid permit…”
Scratch schools in Arizona off our list. And it’s not just about guns (although that’s a big part). It’s about the trigger-happy, doomsday talk emitting from the state.
But the bills’ sponsor, State Rep. Jack Harper, remained undeterred. “With four hours of range time on gun safety, four hours of classroom time on gun laws of Arizona, an FBI background check, I feel that faculty members with a [Concealed Carry Weapon permit] should no longer be sitting ducks on Arizona’s colleges and university campuses,” the Republican said in a statement on January 20. [emphasis mine]
Wow! I guess without everyone packing heat Arizona colleges and universities are dangerous places. Talk about a Public Relations nightmare. Sounds like you’d be a fool to send your children to these colleges and universities if these laws don’t pass. And while I’m certain this vision is an unintended consequence of the “everybody should be armed” crowd, it does create the impression that Arizona institutes of higher learning are very dangerous places and the way to make them safer is by adding more guns.
Granted, not everyone in Arizona agrees with this approach, but it seems that most of the lawmakers do. Guns in bars? What could possibly go wrong?
Not to mention that the vision of the Hero Gunslinger is a Myth. (read the entire article!)
It defies logic, as this case shows once again, that an average citizen with a gun is going to disarm a crazed killer. For one thing, these kinds of shootings happen far too suddenly for even the quickest marksman to get a draw. For another, your typical gun hobbyist lacks training in how to react in a violent scrum.
Exactly. So, for those of you packing heat please don’t try and save me. In fact, you’ll probably end up hurt… or shooting the wrong person.
At least two recent studies show that more guns equals more carnage to innocents. One survey by the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine found that guns did not protect those who had them from being shot in an assault — just the opposite. Epidemiologists at Penn looked at hundreds of muggings and assaults. What they found was that those with guns were four times more likely to be shot when confronted by an armed assailant than those without guns. The unarmed person, in other words, is safer.
Other studies have found that states with the highest rates of gun ownership have much greater gun death rates than those where only a small percentage of the population is armed. So, Hawaii, where only 9.7 percent of residents own guns, has the lowest gun death rate in the country, while Louisiana, where 45 percent of the public is armed, has the highest.
More gun ownership = more deaths by gun. Color me shocked.
And it’s a shame that we’re going to have to consider rates of gun ownership and gun laws when selecting a university. And before somebody has a fit. It is our right to rule these states out, just like you can add these school to your list.
Great post. Right after the shooting I saw a young man interviewd who said he was armed but everything happened too quickly for him to even think about using his gun. Maybe it was the same guy mentioned in the article.
I believe police officers go through a lot of training in simulated situations so that they are as prepared as anybody possibly can be for this sort of thing, but we all know things can go wrong even for them.
I’ve witnessed violent scenes involving guns a few times in my life and there’s no way I would have been ready to make split second decisions.
BTW, good luck with the college search. The research part is not a lot of fun but visiting campuses with my kids was one of my favorite things ever.
Good writing, Pandora. Well argued.
But Pandora, don’t you know that guns don’t kill people?
Ugh. When I was in college “shots” were something entirely different.
I’ve witnessed violent scenes involving guns a few times in my life and there’s no way I would have been ready to make split second decisions.
I agree, it is a tough decision for a civilian. Unfortunately the decision is much easier – some would say too easy – when you are law enforcement and backed up by the judiciary and the AG. It is probably worthwhile to also research police behavior in places a young person is considering living.
Thanks, Dana and Jane! It’s no secret I don’t like guns and it has nothing to do with not being exposed to them. I’m a cop’s kid. I grew up with a gun in the house. I also grew up with the reality of the sort of training involved in law enforcement.
I really, really, really don’t want an untrained person rushing into chaos to “save the day” when the odds are that they’ll make a bad situation worse for others and for themselves – unless they believe police officers arriving on the scene should be able to distinguish between the bad guy wearing jeans with a gun and the good guy wearing jeans with a gun.
you dont think this is is best solution the wretched dangerous state the conservatives have created in Arizona? It has always been a haven for GOP Conservatism and they are now admitting no one is safe unless everyone is armed…. sounds like Kabul to me.
Look at the protesters in Tunisia and Egypt – changing their governments without guns or without even a Second Amendment. If the protesters had guns they would all be dead.
Maybe people think you’re kidding, Pandora, but when we started the college hunt, we looked at blue states, just so the dating pool would be large enough, lol. Eldest was tired of fundamentalists. But with this new hostility, we took Arizona off even for some good job prospects.
True enough, O2008.
Here’s my biggest concern with everyone having guns. They are asking me to trust all gun owners and accept the body count that goes along with that blind trust. There are far to many “oops!” in that scenario. And I’d rather not trust my safety to the armed masses… who are always ready to point fingers at the crazy person as the reason people are dead rather than the availability of guns. It’s also kinda nuts that the answer to shootings is more guns. That’s like saying the answer to drug overdoses is more drugs.
I also don’t understand the constant state of fear a lot of gun owners live in. They need the gun for protection, they say – often. Seems to me a person that afraid shouldn’t have a gun. They are far too ready to use it against what they perceive as threats all around them.
Now, this isn’t close to all gun owners, but it is a rather uncomfortable percentage of paranoid people cowering in their suburban neighborhoods, gun at the ready. Basically, I think these people create imaginary scenarios in which they play the hero – a scenario many of them look forward to with bated breath.
At my university, we had an unarmed security force (the chancellor refused to allow them to be called police). They seemed to handle everything a lot better than the armed police at the other colleges and universities in the state.
I got involved in a discussion about guns over at DP. I was pleasantly surprised to see that there was pretty much unanimous agreement that, at the very least, we need to do a much better job of keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people (the bipartisan bar is set so low at this point it doesn’t take much to make me happy!)
It was also discussed that apparently we are not doing a very good job of using the safeguards that are already in place, the result being that only a fraction of the information about the mentally ill that should be available for background checks is actually accessible during these checks. The Va Tech shooter, for example, should have been flagged. Seems like a no-brainer as a place to start making some improvements.
That is a pretty low bar! Let’s stop crazy people from getting guns. It’s right up there with “Let’s not kick puppies.” 🙂
Yeah, keep your kid out of Arizona. After all, it isn’t like the child really needs all the rights guaranteed by the Constitution. Which other ones do you want suspended and violated on campus in addition to the one protected by the Second Amendment?
Don’t worry, Joe. We crossed Texas schools off the list years ago. 👿
Also Pandora – minority studies are out in Az as well – thanks to Brewer
they will get a much more rounded education somewhere else.
altho – I did take marksmanship in College – and aced it too – women make better snipers apparently – has to do with our breathing patterns…
we have guns – but the are cable locked and have been for so long I doubt I could find the keys – someone breaking into my house best beware of the dog and the chick with the poker first.
Aw shucks Pandora–I was kinda hoping the kids could carpool, or convoy together once you sent your first one out the door :). My son can ride shotgun ‘kay? No, seriously–with a Sun Devil kid he agrees it is real unnerving to see guns out on the bar, shopping in Walmart looking at someone’s exposed holster, or knowing on a traffic stop an occupant merely has to state “I have a gun in my car”, and all is well. But then I’ve been in 3rd world countries where you see men w/ complete shoulder to hip (is that a magazine?) bullet sashes, and their machine gun at a rest stop in line for the bathroom. These gun laws are tricky–but an inexperienced user will find themselves on the wrong end when it’s too late.
One item of note–culturally, many of those western states keep their gun as close as their truck. Seriously, the norm is a gunrack in the back driving around town. These folks are a whole lot more comfortable with it than I would ever be.
Not an issue — any child of yours would be far below the intellectual standards required to get into any school in this state Hopefully your child will qualify for 13th grade at your local community college in Delaware after intensive remediation.
Joe American is by FAR the most insightful and hands down classiest person to comment here. $t $arah has taught you well, young Bagger.
Bet Joe can’t even ride a horse.
But I’d wager he does have the HAT!!!
I don’t really see the need to carry a gun, but not having a gun in your home to protect your family is just plain irresponsible.
As far as teachers carrying guns in school, I can’t see that happening.
Now see… here’s a great example of our differences. I think it’s “irresponsible” to have a gun in the house, especially if you have children. Statistics are on my side.
And who exactly are you protecting yourself from? Do you live in a high crime area? Have you used your gun to defend your home?
If a gun is stored securely enough to be safe from children, it is too locked-down to be of much use in a sudden crisis. There should be multiple layers of security to protect the gun not only from children, but also from impulsive adults (i.e., angry, drunk, prescription med error, nervous breakdown etc).
And if the crisis is not sudden, call the cops.
If social order breaks down to the point where the odds of a home invasion are greater than the odds of the gun being used against your own family, then it would be time to get your family the hell out of Dodge, rather than being a dope and relying on your trigger finger.
Exactly, O2008. So either the gun is locked-down and useless in a crisis, or not locked down and easily accessible to family members.
And I still don’t understand the living in fear of home invasion reasoning.
There is also a whole category of home invasions where your only chance of survival is NOT to pull a gun.
more important than a gun is probably a dog. Hopefully the dog will wake you up before the callus murdering drug addicted low life scum can do any damage.
Sometimes I wonder if a good heavy spear or pike would suffice, but you only have one chance with that, and the intruder probably has a gun, and it seems that most home invasions involve more than one criminal.
If someone breaks into your house knowing that people are inside, you must expect that they will not hesitate to harm you.
Obama2008, you are absolutely correct. Those guys worry me. What ever happened to the good old days when cops actually had normal haircuts, and didn’t go around terrorizing honest citizens.
I just spent over a week in Arizona, and loved it. Actually thinking about buying some acreage there.
Did I read 4 hours training for a CDW permit? That’s fucking absurd. As a handgun/shotgun instructor, it takes at least that long to familiarize a person with their weapon, and approx. 20+ more hours to gain a MINIMUM level of proficiency, depending on their ability. It may sound odd, but I also favor a psychological evaluation before a person can qualify to carry concealed. My opinion is based on over 25 years of disarming countless idiots. That being said, if stringent requirements are met, I support CDW permits in all states.
“… So either the gun is locked-down and useless in a crisis, or not locked down and easily accessible to family members.”
If one decides to keep a gun for home protection, every member of the family should be familiarized/trained in the use of the firearm(s). I did this, and all my girls are damn good shots.
“And I still don’t understand the living in fear of home invasion reasoning.”
Perhaps you’ve never lived in an area where they are likely to happen. They’re all the rage in Sussex these days. I just got home on Monday from a 5 week cross-country roadtrip. It was cut a few days short by learning that our house had been burglarized. Minor property damage, and nothing lost but some prescription medication, (nothing narcotic, just mostly expired blood pressure/heart medicine. I hope they take it, because it made me feel terrible), and some costume jewelry. The douchebags attempted to break into the gun safe (where there was quite a collection), but were unsuccessful. All indications were that they were coming back to pick up their stash I discovered.
I’d love to meet and greet them.
You are 22 times more likely to shoot yourself or a family member than your boogeymen. (If you have a problem with that observation, take it up with your fellow gun nuts. It is the statistics speaking not me.)
I’d love to meet and greet them.
See, right there is the fantasy talking. A normal person would want to be anywhere else.
If home invasions are so “likely to happen” in Sussex, what are you and your family still doing there?
Homocidal fantasies are the high fructose corn syrup of wingnutism. There are in everything.
Wow! Who knew Sussex was such a dangerous place.
I also don’t get the I’d love to meet and great them mindset. My father, the cop, was always giving us safety advice. To this day I follow most of them.
1. Before getting into your car glance into the backseat. This rule was said often when I was a teenager taking the car. I still do this today.
2. Place a ten dollar bill on a table by your front and back door. When you open your door look and see if the money is there. If it’s not, close the door and leave. The theory is that no one breaking into your home, for any reason, isn’t going take the money. I did this when I lived alone, not so much now with teenagers!
3. If someone demands your purse or wallet… Give It To Them. In the words of my father: There isn’t a damn thing in that purse or wallet worth dying over.
All 3 examples are a way of avoiding a bad situation.
“See, right there is the fantasy talking. A normal person would want to be anywhere else.”
Depends on your definition of “normal”. Apparently, “normal” for you means being a spineless coward, which is certainly no surprise considering your ideological and political orientation.
“If home invasions are so “likely to happen” in Sussex, what are you and your family still doing there?”
While I realize it may be a foreign concept to you, I have too many roots and family responsibilities here to cower away in fear because of the mere possibility of a confrontation.
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“You are 22 times more likely to shoot yourself or a family member than your boogeymen. (If you have a problem with that observation, take it up with your fellow gun nuts. It is the statistics speaking not me.)”
Not me, Sparky, I’m an extensively trained professional, not a government dependent pussy from an urban area (like you). Kellermann’s oft quoted (primarily by limp-dick liberals), and biased study didn’t bother to take this equation into consideration. Nor did it take into consideration how many potentially violent confrontations are avoided because of the presence of a firearm. Apparently, either you weren’t bright enough to perceive this, or intentionally ignored this facts. It’s a toss up.
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“Wow! Who knew Sussex was such a dangerous place.”
From the perspective of a causal visitor, it likely wouldn’t seem that way, as much is unreported by the upstate media. Most is caused, no doubt, by the transplants from north of the canal, and the fact we aren’t totally dependent on big government to protect us.
“I also don’t get the I’d love to meet and great them mindset.”
I’m not at all surprised. I prefer to personally confront my problems. I’m positive that’s a totally different “mindset” for you.
“My father, the cop, was always giving us safety advice. To this day I follow most of them.”
As well you should. It’s great advice for the average city dweller.
“All 3 examples are a way of avoiding a bad situation.”
Again, it’s just a different mindset. You avoid, I prefer to confront and personally exact some form of justice. Nothing really wrong with either.
“Place a ten dollar bill on a table by your front and back door…”
Ordinarily this may work. Explain the fact that my alleged burglars waltzed right by over $75 in cash, antiques, untraceable and valuable electronics, some expensive jewelry, and went straight for the guns and drugs. They’re from New castle alright.
Pandora,
Consider my alma meter, University of Virginia. It’s consistently ranked the best public school in the country. It’s a state school, so relatively inexpensive, and it’s still close enough for the kids to come on weekends.
I know–I’m missing the point of your post, but I’ve grown weary of the gun debate. There is no reasoning with some people.
Anyway, UVa.
Jim
“See, right there is the fantasy talking. A normal person would want to be anywhere else.”
Depends on your definition of “normal”. Apparently, “normal” for you means being a spineless coward, which is certainly no surprise considering your ideological and political orientation.
“If home invasions are so “likely to happen” in Sussex, what are you and your family still doing there?”
While I realize it may be a foreign concept to you, I have too many roots and family responsibilities here to cower away in fear because of the mere possibility of a confrontation.
—————————————————-
“You are 22 times more likely to shoot yourself or a family member than your boogeymen. (If you have a problem with that observation, take it up with your fellow gun nuts. It is the statistics speaking not me.)”
Not me, Sparky, I’m an extensively trained professional, not a government dependent pussy from an urban area (like you). Kellermann’s oft quoted (primarily by limp-dick liberals), and biased study didn’t bother to take this equation into consideration. Nor did it take into consideration how many potentially violent confrontations are avoided because of the presence of a firearm. Apparently, either you weren’t bright enough to perceive this, or intentionally ignored this facts. It’s a toss up.
————————————————-
“Wow! Who knew Sussex was such a dangerous place.”
From the perspective of a causal visitor, it likely wouldn’t seem that way, as much is unreported by the upstate media. Most is caused, no doubt, by the transplants from north of the canal, and the fact we aren’t totally dependent on big government to protect us.
“I also don’t get the I’d love to meet and great them mindset.”
I’m not at all surprised. I prefer to personally confront my problems. I’m positive that’s a totally different “mindset” for you.
“My father, the cop, was always giving us safety advice. To this day I follow most of them.”
As well you should. It’s great advice for the average city dweller.
“All 3 examples are a way of avoiding a bad situation.”
Again, it’s just a different mindset. You avoid, I prefer to confront and personally exact some form of justice. Nothing really wrong with either.
“Place a ten dollar bill on a table by your front and back door…”
Ordinarily this may work. Explain the fact that my alleged burglars waltzed right by over $75 in cash, antiques, untraceable and valuable electronics, some expensive jewelry, and went straight for the guns and drugs. They’re from New Castle Co. alright.
Okay. Got it. Pointing out how much more likely a gun owner is to shoot themselves or their family than they are to shoot bad guys touches a raw nerve for gun nuts.
Again, it was not me talking it is the statistics.
And, like you, the statistics are… inadequate… ,biased, and unconvincing.
Got that?
This is why I keep myself always locked and cocked with twenty sticks of dynamite strapped to my chest.
If some inner-city or non Christian comes into MY house and tries any shit we’re ALL goin’ DOWN motha’ fucka’!!!!
NIP IT IN THE BUD!!!-as Barny Pike would say.
Touchy touchy. Blame your fellow gun nuts if you don’t like the stats, not me. Oh and by the way, I’m actually in favor of your move to Arizona, AZ gunowners kill themselves at rates that are far higher than the national average.
Capt – Good on you mate. They can have my dynamite detonator when they remove it from my cold dead disembodied hand.
“You are 22 times more likely to shoot yourself or a family member than your boogeymen. (If you have a problem with that observation, take it up with your fellow gun nuts. It is the statistics speaking not me.)”
This is an extremely weak study to base any conclusion on.
First it picks only 3 high crime cities to study. Also, The cited study is not national. It picked only urban saettings as opposed to including representative rural and suburban settings. Lastly, it includes suicides and domestic homicides as the basis for impugning the gun itself. Suicide can be accomplished just as easily with a car in a closed garage. Blaming the vehicle for suicide when the actual motivation is probably a distraught, somewhat mentally ill person is inane and should not be part of the gun debate.
The issue of homicide is also a demonstration of author bias. Can one say more people were killed in domestic homicide with a poker than were saved from home invasion with a poker? How about steak knives, butcher knives, baseball bats?
The study was loaded down with so many biases that it is useless.
your comment proves my theory that high population centers and urban areas require different gun laws than homogenous suburbia. When people who want to see less people shot talk about gun control, it is in the setting of city streets where more guns will = more death.
Orestes, you are obviously pro gun… i invite you to go to north philly at night and tell me we need more guns and easier access to them.
The steak knife argument is the predictable refuge of a gun nut who has been rhetorically dis-armed and ass fucked by the statistics. The fact remains that if you are a gun owner, you are far more likely to kill yourself, your wife or your friends with it than you are to kill a bad guy with it.
Don’t blame me for that. Blame your fellow gun nuts.
“I’m an extensively trained professional, not a government dependent pussy”
Sayeth the former state employee. Apparently it’s OK to live on taxpayer money as long as you’re not a “pussy.”
Jason once again you resort to your profanity to obscure the fact that you I nailed you in your futile attempt to foist a transparently biased and bogus study on the readers. In a nation of over 300,000,000 a study of 600 cases from 3 non representative urban areas is supposed to make a nationwide case? You are the one who is getting paddled with the facts.
is it even worth mentioning again that the study shows it is impossible for people from urban areas to debate this with people from non-urban areas since the gun reality is so starkly different?
oreo, you are right. the study is not applicable to McMansion America where everyone has 2 SUVs, a hot teenage daughter and a son that looks like the milkman. however (comma) the need for gun control in cities wont go away just because you are a responsible gun owner from Suburbia, Statesasota USA.
Hell, even Wyatt Earp instituted gun control in Tombstone. New comers to town had to check their guns with the sheriff
BTW. By virtue of being a gun owner, you are 4.5 time more likely to be shot and killed than the rest of us. Again, don’t blame me. Blame your gun owning brothers and sisters.
“your comment proves my theory that high population centers and urban areas require different gun laws than homogenous suburbia. When people who want to see less people shot talk about gun control, it is in the setting of city streets where more guns will = more death.
Orestes, you are obviously pro gun… i invite you to go to north philly at night and tell me we need more guns and easier access to them.”
Ben I never said in my comment that urban centers should require different gun laws. I was criticizing a study that Jason linked. Any honest study would have included urban and rural statistics. Those statistics may in fact back your contention but that is not what the bogus and biased study linked by Jason did. In fact the study included some cities with some seriously high per capita homicide rates. Anyone wanting to draw some overall conclusions a study of 600 incidents and apply it as a basis for major policy.
Now Ben it is obvious that just criticizing an anti gun study for its non scientific sampling flaws gets your liberal panties in a bunch. As for North Philly, It is probably as bad as parts of Washington D.C. or parts of Chicago Ill., which have the strictest gun control laws in the nation. How has all that gun control worked?
Not very well at all since anyone can walk into a gun show in Arizona, joke about background checks, travel to philly and sell said gun to a drug deal who uses it to kill a cop…. im sure that isn’t what Bubba in that video did, but you see how easy it is to flood the streets of a city with automatic weapons that have no use other than killing humans. I was bringing up another point when i said there are 2 realities as far as weapons are concerned, therefore there need to be 2 approaches to gunshot control. (see what i did there? i renamed “gun control” “gunshot control” We don’t want to control your guns. we don’t want to control your guns. we don’t want to control your guns. we want to control the number of people killed by guns obtained by bad guys who shouldn’t have had access to the gun in the first place. If you have nothing to hide, your gun should have nothing to fear. Isn’t that the Right Wing’s Patriot act rationalization? the laws and measures are only meant for the bad guy anyway.
Also, the safety of the streets in my neighborhood are more important to me than your right to have a big fancy gun collection. Sorry..
Ben, Do you have any documented cases of someone buying a gun from a gun show in Arizona killing a Philly cop???
The gun show talk has never been backed by actual cases. In this day and age with wireless internet and laptops background checks are done by every Federally licensed gun dealers at gun shows. These guys have to because they can lose their Federal license to sell guns and earn a living if they violate the law.
Criminals manage to acquire guns in North Philly, Chicago, or D.C. without ever leaving the neighborhood. The same is true of Wilmington, home of Delaware’s most restrictive gun laws.
I really, really, really don’t want an untrained person rushing into chaos to “save the day” when the odds are that they’ll make a bad situation worse for others and for themselves.”
As usual Pandora’s ramblings are just that, paranoid ramblings. “odds are they’ll make the situation worse.” BS. Pandora is an ignorant bigot who has no objective basis for making such a claim, only her own irrational fears and prejudices.
BTW. By virtue of being a gun owner, you are 4.5 time more likely to be shot and killed than the rest of us. Again, don’t blame me. Blame your gun owning brothers and sisters.
I love how anti-gunners just pull crap from their ass. No evidence, no facts, nothing. If that were true then places with high gun ownership rates would have homicide rates at least 4.5 times higher than places strict gun laws and low ownership rates.
If you’re a gun-toting CRIMINAL there’s probably some truth to this statement, ditto if you’re engaged in the drug trade. If you’re an honest citizen who chooses to own a gun, not so much.
In this day and age with wireless internet and laptops background checks are done by every Federally licensed gun dealers at gun shows. These guys have to because they can lose their Federal license to sell guns and earn a living if they violate the law.
Watch carefully:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv2u7l8rKrQ
Exactly. So, for those of you packing heat please don’t try and save me.
Not my job woman. Nor is it the reason I carry. I carry to protect myself and my love ones, as that is my responsibiltiy as a responsible adult. You are responsible for your own safety, not me, not joe blow, and not the police. If you’d rather not carry a gun for protection that’s fine by me. That’s your choice. The problem is that you want to deny me that choice and force me to live by your choice.
Do you have any evidence that it’d be objectively more dangerous for your kid to attend a school where CCW holders can carry than a school where they cannot? Do you have any evidence that Arizona schools are more dangerous or have more violent crime than schools in places with strict gun control, like say, Chicago, DC, or Baltimore?
“If that were true then places with high gun ownership rates would have homicide rates at least 4.5 times higher than places strict gun laws and low ownership rates.”
Good thing for Mike you don’t have to pass a logic test to get a gun. Jason’s numbers can be called into question, but Mike ignores the fact that guns kill more people by suicide than homicide, with accidents adding another 5% to the total number of fatalities. There are other statistical problems with the sentence I have quoted, but that’s the biggest problem with his comment.
“Do you have any evidence that it’d be objectively more dangerous for your kid to attend a school where CCW holders can carry than a school where they cannot?”
Why should she need any? All she said was she won’t send her kids to school in such a state. You wouldn’t submit to a standard by which you had to show objective evidence before you could own a gun, would you? Why would you deny others the right to live by their preferences?
“Mike ignores the fact that guns kill more people by suicide than homicide, with accidents adding another 5% to the total number of fatalities”
Geezer give me a break. The fact is depression kills more people by suicide than anything else and the means used by those who suffer from this illness means little. They will find a way regardless once they have made that decision. (Pills are a popular option with women.) You might as well say that anti depressants kill people since suicide is a short term potential side effect of anti depressants. I have had too many friends end their lives by a wide variety of means to buy the anti gun sucide argument.
“In this day and age with wireless internet and laptops background checks are done by every Federally licensed gun dealers at gun shows. These guys have to because they can lose their Federal license to sell guns and earn a living if they violate the law.
Watch carefully:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv2u7l8rKrQ”
Nice try Obama. 5 guys in a tent that can’t be recognized and who admit they aren’t Federal Gun Dealers make the point that Gun shows with licensed dealers are the problem. Come again when you have dealt with what I have actually said.
oreo, I said I was sure that ISNT what Bubbu from Arizona did. I DID say that there are states where people can buy guns with NO background check… and that is how they end up in the hands of gangs on the city streets. Try to get yourself out of “stomp a liberal” mindset for once and really try hard to understand what i was saying. Gun laws, as they exist now work very well for large parts of the country. Other parts of the country suffer because extremely lax gun laws and outright lawbreaking by vendors and blind eyes from law enforcement allow unregistered deadly weapons to flow freely on the black market.
and can i just say that i am sick of Arizona as a state? most of the regressive and reactionary right wing legislation in the past few years has come from Arizona. Murderous Minutemen (hardly reported) are picking off immigrant children in… Arizona. Any criminal can walk into a gun show and buy an automatic murder machine in…. Arizona. If the decide to leave the union, lets not let the door hit em on the way out.
also, “Automatic Murder Machines” is a GREAT name for a punk band
Funny how barely recognizable people in a non descript setting with a tape of questionable merit was enough to destroy ACORN, and urban organizing in general, but it isnt enough to convince Gun humpers that we have a real problem in this country.
I find it hilarious that these gun nuts get so flustered when presented with a few simple stats. If you don’t like the stats take it up with the NRA. Someone is failing to teach gun owners not to kill themselves and it isn’t me.
Jason I took up your bogus study critiqued it and destroyed it. That was the sole point of my first post. You have never addressed my criticisms. Instead you did your usual bit of name calling and changing the subject.
Socialistic Ben I asked what police officer was shot by a gun bought from an Arizona Gun show. You have yet to respond because you can’t provide one example.
“oreo, I said I was sure that ISNT what Bubbu from Arizona did. I DID say that there are states where people can buy guns with NO background check… and that is how they end up in the hands of gangs on the city streets. Try to get yourself out of “stomp a liberal” mindset for once and really try hard to understand what i was saying. Gun laws, as they exist now work very well for large parts of the country”
First I am in favor of background checks and I agreed with the discussion on DP that actually registering mentally ill individuals so they could not buy guns should be done. Since this is already Federal Law it is yet another example of the incompetence of the Federal Government. If current laws were simply enforced, and this includes the actual incarceration with no plea bargaining for those convicted of gun crimes then we would have fewer gun crimes. Until we actually start enforcing all of the gun laws currently on the books I see no need to add more.
You can’t “destroy” the facts with your stupid “steak knife” false analogies son. I’m sorry to be the one who has to introduce you to that little bit of adult life.
But, as I have said, your quarrel is not with me, but with the gun violence statistics. I know that you are impervious to facts, so this is my last word on the topic. Have fun with your masturbatory gun nut hero fantasies and good day, Sir.
Socialistic Ben I asked what police officer was shot by a gun bought from an Arizona Gun show. You have yet to respond because you can’t provide one example.
I would be very happy to find Ben is wrong and no officer has yet been killed by one of those no-background-check guns bought at an Arizona gun show. But being wrong about that wouldn’t detract from Ben’s point though.
“You can’t “destroy” the facts with your stupid “steak knife” false analogies son. I’m sorry to be the one who has to introduce you to that little bit of adult life.”
I didn’t need the steak knife analogy to destroy your biased and weak study. I only needed to point out the obvious faulty biases within the study itself. It is instructive that you have never addressed those biases within the study itself. That is because you can’t and I have paddled your fanny with those facts. It is obvious you love that kind of paddling because you keep coming back for more.
“Sayeth the former state employee. Apparently it’s OK to live on taxpayer money as long as you’re not a “pussy.”
Thanks for proving my point about dependency. It’s still astounding (to me), that the mindset of working ones ass off for substandard wages to protect the populace, and putting my life on the line for those who don’t have the balls to do it for themselves… is being dependent. I suppose that I should be surprised, but I’ve worked enough shifts above the Canal to realize how very inadequate you impotent sheep are at ethics, integrity, and basic survival skills.
“… state employee … ”
To clarify (for you), mostly federal, state, and some private sector. Nonetheless, it was my pleasure to be a public servant for many years. That’s how I was able to retire early (at twice the poverty level). BTW, I offer a sincere thanks for your small contribution to my retirement. Hold steady for me, as I have a quite a few more years before I collect Social Security (to which I also contributed). Life is good here. Sorry about your situation.
This map shows that more gun ownership equals more gun deaths.
“…So, for those of you packing heat please don’t try and save me. In fact, you’ll probably end up hurt… or shooting the wrong person.”
I haven’t shot the wrong person yet and, over decades of service, am absolutely certain I’ve saved far more than lives than I’ve taken. Although, I don’t pack any more (not even in Arizona), I’d still try to save you, Pandora. It would be my honor. It’s just a natural reaction… for some, I suppose.
As a trained professional, Miscreant, you can save me! 🙂
Fine, Oreo,
i cannot give you one specific example of an arizona gun show where a redneck sold a gun without a background check, because screw Obama, and it killed a philly cop.
But you tell ME how we have gangs armed like militias and unregistered guns are all over the place. They don’t just fall from the sky. They get there because of examples like the one in the video. They get there because there is NO respect on the right wing for people’s right NOT to own a gun. If i recall, this entire post is ONE family’s decision to not send their children to a state who’s conservative leadership is driving it toward a violent chaotic mess. That CHOICE was attacked as “liberal activism” and “trying to steal our guns and stopping our ability to kill the government if we have to” Im sick of responsible gun owners who’s fire arms are totally safe advancing the idea that a viable solution to gun violence is MORE GUNS!
but like i’ve said over and over and over…. no one is out to take your guns.
If laws that currently exist were enforced, and some states were made to be less reckless, then states where rampant gun ownership ISNT a problem stop causing so many problems for the states where it is.