Ask Dr. Liberal – What Up With Chip?
Dear Dr. Liberal,
I’m a Republican, so I’m watching the Chip Flowers versus Velda Jones-Potter primary with amusement. I have a questions though. What was Chip Flowers thinking?
4/5th’s of politics is picking your shot. Flowers seems like he has a promising career in politics ahead of his, so why would he primary a party favorite who is a shoe in to be elected in the general?
Signed,
Mildly Curious
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Dear Mildly,
First of all, when someone protests three times that they don’t care about something, it is a pretty safe bet that they care. Second of all, I agree that 4/5th’s of politics is picking your shot. Just ask Jack Markell, Tom Carper, Mike Castle and Joe Biden about that. Third of all, I don’t know.
It humbles Dr. Liberal to admit it, but I am stumped. You’ll have to ask Chip Flowers why he decided to undertake this primary. Chip flowers…or perhaps commenters on this blog.
Sorry for the dry hump.
Yours,
Dr. Liberal
Wasn’t John Carney a party favorite who was a shoe in?
I thought when Jones-Potter was appointed she wasn’t going to run for election. I guess that changed?
That is about how good the word of Jones-Potter is!!
Yeah, Velda wasn’t going to run. So Chip got in. Then Velda changed her mind. So she’s really primarying him.
Anon has it correct. She even features the NJ article on her appointment that quotes her as not going to run in 2010 on her website and in her literature. Chip was in the race first.
MJ – it looks like that article is no longer on her website, actually.
Ha! Really? She’s running, she’s not running? Give it a rest already.
Yes, she’s running. And yes, she’s whipping Chip in case no one noticed!
It gets old seeing all of Chips campaign workers comment on his behalf. Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that all of Chip’s campaign staff works in his law office, too?
She’s whipping Chip? Really? So much so her husband is running around with a manilla folder lying to folks to get her endorsements! You should be familiar with the whisper campaign as Velda supporter.
Quit dreaming, its not a good look.
It gets old seeing Velda’s supporters get on this website and post their delusions.
Jason, Celia Cohen covered the ‘Jones-Potter won’t run’ statement in her Pre-2010 Famous Last Words post.
http://www.communitypub.com/state_news/x1919579414/COMMENTARY-Delaware-Grapvine-Famous-last-words-pre-2010-moves-that-mattered
It should be noted that she had no obvious reason to say she wouldn’t run, and no obvious reason to change her mind. Her supporters can wail about her qualifications till primary day and it still won’t dispel the impression that she’s — I dunno — either flighty or hiding something. And before the pitchforks and torches emerge, I don’t know a thing — I’m just talking about the impression it leaves.
I think this link solves all the questions about Veldas change of mind. http://tinyurl.com/2d3728v. This was on Chip’s Facebook page and it says that Velda Jones Potter lit dropped his house and he noticed a small little oversight in her literature piece. She forgot to crop the part that says that she did not intend to run. Not trying to bring her down, but this incident plus the infamous mamilla folder are signs of a bad campaign operation. Early prediction – Flowers beats Potter and Bonini. For a young campaigner, he seems to understand how to campaign. Did anyone receive his postcard mailer – it looked sharp and I’m an old time political junkie. If you aren’t convinced of his ability, did anyone notice that instead of talking about Veldas endorsement this week, he managed to shift the message and the endorsement became an afterthought. Plus, did anyone notice the timing of his mailings? Bottomline, whether you like him or not, he’s good – really good.
How does that answer any questions about her change of mind? Please cut the campaign ad crap. The fact is that Chip is not “good — really good.” He’s well behind Bonini in money raised, and he is NOT endorsed by the Democratic establishment, and with good reason — his self-aggrandizing plans for the office are ridiculous and will not get anywhere with either party in the General Assembly.
If he were “good — really good” he’d get control of you dumb-asses who keep posting here in the apparent belief that the site is read mainly by people who just fell off a turnip truck. And the same goes for Velda. Pull that shit on Channel 28, where people might fall for it.
Geezer, I hate to disappoint you, but I don’t work for Chip. Why do you think that your opinion is the only one that matters. I was making my point known. Aren’t you a Bonini supporter anyway. Look, just because you don’t agree with someone doesn’t entitle you to belittle people you wannabe bully. I don’t need to be controlled by anyone, but you do. I wish you would blog elsewhere with your lack of political insight. I’ve been to hundreds of political events and I have never seen you! Before you criticize anyone, get out of your chair and show up somewhere. Seriously, name at least three events that you attended where you heard Velda and Chip speak? Please verify since you are a fan of verifying facts.
Wheezer is weirdly freaked about Flowers supporters. I think that Velda’s having declared a “Kaufman” is sorta, you know, valid here.
It isn’t as if some of us hadn’t tried to persuade her to get on the record “Will she run?”. I asked her at the 2009 freaking DEM Convention at Dover Downs, myself. No reply. Velda coyly refused a response.
Was she seeking permission or something or what?
Frankly, this lady and her supporters and others have been making the stupendously stupid declaration that ‘Chip should leave the race’ for a number of months now.
Both sides’ supporters are walking a Protack-primary-campaign line and I am not kidding. Holy cow, all this petty sniping! Really, Velda is primarying Chip. Oh really? Waaaaa. It doesn’t matter! Hello? They are primarying each other, period. It doesn’t matter who filed first. Protack said in an article a while back he’d likely run for the 3rd council seat, but then did nothing, NOTHING about it. Kilpatrick filed a few months ago, then Protack did just days before the deadline. What do his supporters scream? Aside from incorrectly maligning Kilpatrick, they cry that she is primarying him, because he said he’d likely do it first (then did nothing about it until the last minute). What-the-freak-ever. Get over it, lest you Protack your own campaigns. As I said in another thread, if I were Velda or Chip, I’d tell you to STFU, because none of you are doing a single thing to help your candidate.
“For a young campaigner, he seems to understand how to campaign. Did anyone receive his (Chip’s) postcard mailer – it looked sharp and I’m an old time political junkie.”
I got it today. Overall I’d give it a B- . I was planning on blogging about it tomorrow.
This whole controversy over primary-ing someone is stupid… There is nothing that says you can’t primary… except for the filing fee. If you can’t muster the fee; you can’t run.. If you can… you can run.
I remember not so long ago, there was on this blog, a lot of smack about gunning up to create huge primaries. It was good for the party. That is still true: It is. If you look around right now at all state contests, and were to sum them up in one word, it would be…….. “boring”.
We have two talented people now vying for one position. And the winner will run against someone who’s name rhymes with wienie. I’m sorry, but this primary race is probably the most exciting race this year.
What is most amazing, is that the talk about “they SHOULDN’T HAVE DARED PRIMARY US” is primarily spewed by one’s inner circle against the other’s inner circle.. In reality, who really cares.
My humble opinion says that having an exciting Democratic primary, boosts the chances of the winner against the man whose name rhymes with wienie. The wienie will have a very tough time… trying muscle into some of that excitement flowing across the state as we edge up to primary day.
Here’s the fix. (If you don’t know about fixes, you haven’t been in Delaware politics very long..)
Velda wins the primary and loses to a man who rhymes with wienie.
It sure would be interesting if voters were to turn that “fix” on its ear.
Love this:
Pull that shit on Channel 28, where people might fall for it.
I agree with Kavips about being able to primary at will, but whether or not Chip picked his best spot here is a valid political science question. VJP is an incumbent. Of course Flowers is within his rights to primary her. Was it a smart move? We’ll all know the answer to that soon enough.
I think the key here is that Chip decided to run under the impression that Velda would NOT be running since, of course, she publicly stated she wasn’t going to run. As I understand, he made several calls to her camp which went unanswered. I think he announced he was going to run last summer and she jumped in several months later – at which time he was already in full campaign swing.
I don’t blame him – I wouldn’t have dropped out either. She was wishy-washy and should have never said publicly she wasn’t going to run, just because of the possibilty that she may change her mind. She probably didn’t take Chip seriously when he was calling her, probably shouldn’t have done that.
I’m not a Bonini supporter. It’s my observation that in a Republican year, he’s got a lot of money and has to be the favorite in this race, if only on name recognition. I’m not freaked out by Chip’s supporters — I’m pointing out that they are heavy-handed and transparent, almost as much so as Velda’s. My observation was that I don’t understand why she ever declared she wasn’t going to run, or why she changed her mind. I doubt I’ll ever find out the answer to either one, or that anyone else will either.
I don’t need to go out to see either of them speak. I’ve heard both of them. The last freaking thing I’m ever going to do is get involved in grassroots Delaware politics. I simply don’t care who wins this race, or most others. I don’t have to train horses to bet on the races (that one’s for you, Nancy).
If you don’t like what I’ve got to say about the race, don’t read it. My comments here are pretty much confined to correcting what I see as misperceptions and calling bullshit when I read it. The second one alone keeps me pretty busy. Hell, calling bullshit on nobody but Chip Flowers would be a full-time job.
For those who haven’t heard it, there’s a WDEL podcast featuring Chip Flowers in which bullshit is called. In my humble opinion, that’s more valuable than a hundred Chip Flowers speeches.
I’m not sure that Bonini’s the favorite. I AM sure that this feces-hurling contest between these two candidates is making Bonini more electable and doing neither D any favors.
Maybe we can get a non-partisan arbitrater like ‘Feces-Throwing Monkey’ to lob stinkbombs at both sides until they stop doing it to each other.
If there are more important things in politics than money and name recognition, I’m unaware of them. How can he NOT be the favorite? The only thing the winner of the Democratic primary will have is the registration edge. But a lot of Delawareans pride themselves on being ticket-splitters, and a down-ticket race of no consequence might be the perfect place to demonstrate it.
Why do you think Bonini has name recognition advantage? I doubt he’s much known outside of political junkies and his district.
Me too. But it’s more name recognition than Chip or Velda.
Geezer, first, you should stop advertising your show. It undermines your argument about blog posts being ads. Second, you seem to only insult Chip’s plan, though Velda has no plan. Of course, its easy to criticize the person with a plan. Third, where is the podcast of your interview with Velda, oh you don’t have one do you (think about it oh fair one). Fourth, I think the only bullshit is finding an excuse for not hearing them on the trail. It’s lazy reporting and you know it. How can you identify a misperception when you are not on the ground.
Look, I have no issue with people being against Chip or Velda, but I do take issue with people attacking a candidate without being fully informed. This is a complicated race with multiple dynamics. Velda was endorsed by the party, but the AFL-CIO refused to endorse yesterday from understandings with many unions thinking Chip may have the edge. It’s an anti incumbent year, where people want change, which is why I give Chip the edge (Bonini will also gain ground on this, except like Velda, he has a record that can be attacked).
Finally, my sources tell me that Chip has some personal wealth (which seems plausible given he owns his own law firm and I don’t see him out there begging for cash). Seeing his billboards and mailers, I just think it appears that he may be self funded in this race and not revealing his money.
Now, Geezer, all this was said to show you that instead of using profane language to make your point, you should use inside analysis to obtain a level of credibility. In short, I will conclude by saying have a nice day and go deeper than Chip is bullshit.
“This is a complicated race with multiple dynamics.”
What a wagonload of horseshit. It’s a meaningless office that shouldn’t exist and nobody cares about, except that it has in the past been used as a launching pad for political careers.
“I do take issue with people attacking a candidate without being fully informed.”
I am fully informed. Unlike you, I know what people in the General Assembly and the governor’s office think of Chip’s “plan” — it’s a non-starter. The notion that either source of political power would willingly hand over DEFAC and DEDO to Chip Flowers or anybody else in the treasurer’s office is just laughable. And I pointed you to that interview not to advertise anything but to show you how he reacted when it was put to him that way — something you and others seem too polite to do.
“the only bullshit is finding an excuse for not hearing them on the trail. It’s lazy reporting and you know it. How can you identify a misperception when you are not on the ground.”
I’m not a reporter, and you’ll find no reporter “on the trail” of this race, because the office is pointless. The public simply doesn’t care. There’s a reason news organizations stopped sending reporters out on the campaign trail — nothing of interest happens there, and the public knows it. As for identifying misperceptions, you folks make it quite easy by coming here and thumping your chests.
“you should use inside analysis to obtain a level of credibility”
And you should remove your head from your ass — you’ll see farther that way. This requires no “inside analysis.” Chip Flowers was the victim of a smear campaign, and he’s trying to turn it to his advantage. Good for him. But all it requires is two eyes and a brain behind them to see that his rabid little fan club is overplaying its hand.
“You should stop advertising”
And you should stop changing your blog name every time your cover is blown.
Wow, Geezer, it is clear from your post that you didn’t read Chip’s plan.
Plese stop with the profanity, its not productive.
** This comment was edited by pandora. Please follow the rules.
Geezer, did you really READ Chip’s plan? Based upon your comment about DEFAC and DEDO me thinks not. Really, I guess its par for the course.
Still waiting for your critique of Velda’s plan and/or ideas…
Have YOU read his plan, or just listened to him talk? Do you not realize that he is calling for DEDO to be moved from the governor’s office to his? Do you not realize that he is calling for his office to supercede DEFAC, which is used as a model of economic forecasting by states around the nation? Do you not realize that he can’t do either one without action by the General Assembly?
As for Velda, what’s to critique? Running for office does not require a “plan.” It’s nice and all, but when your plan is self-aggrandizing, it’s a double-edged sword. Sorry to call you out on it, but every single time you folks come here to spread your manure, I’m going to point out what it smells like. The fact that you are so sensitive about criticism and so eager to attack the messenger says more about the people supporting Chip Flowers than I ever could on my own.
And oh, by the way — “profane” is blasphemous language. The word you’re looking for is “obscene.” But then you’d have to be something other than the ignorant asses you are to know that.
GEEZER, STOP LYING ON CHIP’S PLAN. THE PLAN CALLS FOR THE DEDO’S STRATEGIC FUND TO BE MANAGED BY THE TREASURERS OFFICE. Show us where in the plan it calls for DEDO to move? It doesn’t you dumb fuck (yes, apparently we need to stoop to your dumb ass level). THE PLAN DOES NOT CALL FOR THE TREASURERS OFFICE TO SUPERCEDE DEFAC. Show us where in the plan it says that asswipe.
You are fuckin stupid. Where the fuck did you get your education, the internet? Shut the fuck up and read you bonini lover. People like you think iraq was behind 9/11.
My apologies for the profanity to those others on this blog, but I am tired of that piece of shit commenting like an ass while the rest of us remain civilized. Let’s go Geezer, I can talk about your ass all day big boy.
** This comment was edited by pandora. Please follow the rules.
I have read his plan and I have heard him (and Velda speak) several times. Chip isn’t asking to take over an office or responsibilities, and if that’s what you take from his plan I suggest you polish up on your reading comprehension skills. All you do is attack Chip for having ideas and his opponent has absolutely none for bettering the office or at least making it relevant as you claim it is not.
I am sure Chip knows that every idea he has in his plan isn’t going to happen. But he is trying to add value to the office, unlike his opponent so why don’t you take your head out of your ass and stop bitching about what chip can and cannot do.
“Under the new structure, the Delaware Economic Development Office (DEDO) would continue to provide critical marketing services and recommendations relating to financing businesses while the Treasurer’s Office would manage the fund’s assets and create financial packages for qualifying companies. The Treasurer’s Office, in cooperation with DEDO, would establish eligibility standards, guidelines and a selection process for businesses seeking to use the Strategic Fund.”
You’re right, he wouldn’t take over DEDO — just all of its money and the decisions on who gets it. The difference is negligible.
“Using information obtained from federal agencies, the state Departments of Finance and Labor, the Delaware Economic and Financial Advisory Council (DEFAC) and internal forecasts, the Treasurer’s
Office will be responsible for implementing a state financial early warning system to notify state agencies when key financial indicators trend downward.”
How is that NOT superceding DEFAC? Not to mention that it steps all over the governor’s office, which is in charge of all those state agencies that Chip wants to “advise.”
“Similar to the rationale of implementing a state financial early warning system, the Treasurer’s Office will assist state agencies in developing contingent spending plans in the event of a downturn in the state’s economic climate. By having the Treasurer’s Office put guidelines in place, agencies could begin to scale back spending as soon as a warning is issued. Such prompt action would offset reductions in revenue resulting from the financial downturn in the subsequent fiscal year.”
He has no authority to do any such thing, and no staff to do it, either. This would add to the state payroll at a time when everyone else is looking for ways to cut it.
I don’t doubt that you folks read the plan; I seriously doubt that you understood it or the implications of it.
As for the personal attacks, grow up. You sound deranged. Whether you like it or not — and you clearly like it so little you can’t even deal with it — his plan is not the wonderful document you all proclaim it to be.
STFU Geezer, you and your analysis are flawed. We are tired of your shit. YOU ARE WRONG BONINI LOVER.
BTW, if I’m deranged then you are a fuckin psychopath. Again, I can go all day big boy.
With supporters like you, Chip really doesn’t need any enemies.
By the way, Bonini’s plan for the office is to turn it into the auditor’s office. He’s running for the wrong office. But then you’d have to have a brain to offer any critique of his plan, wouldn’t you?
Please do go all day. People should see what sort of supporter Chip Flowers has. I’m talking about Chip, and you’re attacking me. Nice folks he’s associated with. Voters should remember that.
Really, what does your position consist of beyond “shut up, I don’t like what you’re saying”? That will get you real far in politics. Velda might not be smart enough to attack the plan, but Bonini is.
Pot meet kettle. The whole deranged argument coming from someone who starts responses with priceless gems like “hey asshole”. It’s not nice when someone digs in your ass with the same nastiness is it?
Back to our discussion…isn’t the treasurer’s office supposed to manage the state’s money? Why should the strategic fund be managed any differently? If the only excuse is that Alan Levine and the governor aren’t going to “like” the change, that’s not a good answer.
Ooh, I’m so hurt when someone uses bad language. In fact, I couldn’t care less. It just shows how empty RU’s head is. Calling bullshit by its name is a lot different from “You are fuckin stupid and sit on your microphone and rotate.”
“If the only excuse is that Alan Levine and the governor aren’t going to “Luke” the change, that’s not a good answer.”
Assuming you meant “like,” it’s the only answer necessary. They have that power, and they are not going to give it up. And I prefer the money be managed by people who know what they’re doing. Chip does, but the next person to hold the office might not. The insurance commissioner debacle demonstrates the folly of keeping these offices elective.
Beyond that, if you read the excerpt above, it’s clear Chip is also demanding a say in who gets the money. Again, not a change toward good government practices, IMHO.
Oh, you are taking the high road now, Geezer. That’s a good boy. Now that have you civilized again, we can continue our discussion. BTW, don’t blame me getting on your ass on Chip or his supporters. I just don’t like you. However, if we earned the level of respect to continue this discussion, we can now proceed. Shall we procced nicely or shall we resume me getting on your ass.
Grow up, clown. As noted earlier, with thugs like you, Chip really doesn’t need enemies. Every single attack on me shows you for what you are. The subject is Chip, not me. And please don’t get the mistaken impression that I have any respect for you at all.
Oh, by the way — since you apparently only come here to do campaign work, you might want to read the site policies, which include the following:
“If you post a comment that reveals personal, private and identifying information concerning any Delaware Liberal contributor or commentator that uses an anonymous or pseudonymous user name or handle, you will be banned instantly with no recourse.”
Since you two are so intent on silencing me, I’d just like to note that I could easily end this argument by calling on the authorities. But, as I’ve said repeatedly, it’s much more valuable to have your attitudes fully aired.
Of course, it was a typo.
I understand your argument about the next person in office, though it is an issue of qualifications. If the fundamental job of the state treasurer is to manage the state’s money, why would you have someone in the position who is not doing just that? I think that’s what is making the position seem irrelevant. This argument cuts both ways, because what if the manager after Levine sucks?
You can’t really control what the next person does (if the role is changed). Just like every other position you have to hope the next person elected is qualified for the position and doesn’t F it up. The problem here is that responsibilities were stripped from the treasurer’s office and now the question is why is this even elected position. I think if it goes back to being the office that manages the state’s money – no matter where it’s housed, there would be less confusion and discussion about who’s taking what responsibilities that belong elsewhere.
Can’t we all just get along? You two having a pissing contest is getting on my nerves. Play like nice posters and get to the issues!
Geezer you know you can have an abusive undertone and I think you pissed RU off. Hell, you piss me off most times but I think its now cool. But hey, do what you need to do.
If you need to tattle to the principal, go ahead. Doesn’t change the fact that I was justified in getting into your ass. Will do it as needed.
Do Geezer and ruserious know each other? I’m not getting this down ticket, essentially anonymous race/ let alone primary– creating such emotion for the Geez.
TGMV: Yes, the office was stripped of its responsibilities, and for exactly that reason. And yes, DEDO was mismanaged under Minner. But it’s easier to find a qualified person for an appointed office than an elected one, which is why most towns in Delaware (and most of the nation, for that matter) went to town manager forms of government.
If the question were only a matter of investing the money (as opposed to deciding who gets it), Chip’s suggestion would make perfect sense. But that’s beside the point, because it simply isn’t going to happen, no matter how much sense it makes. It would make sense to abolish the state parole board, too, since we no longer parole prisoners, but the General Assembly in its wisdom chose not to do so. If I’m going to fight a battle unlikely to succeed, I’d rather fight the battle to abolish the office. That at least would save the state money.
If Chip Flowers wants to point out that he’s smarter than Velda, more energetic than Velda and has more of a political future than Velda, I’m with him all the way. Pointing out scummy campaign tactics by the Potters is fair game, too. But the nonsense I read on the first thread, including the notion that everyone was required to condemn the Potters on LiberalGeek’s say-so, raised my hackles. You folks ought to realize that a softer sell would do your candidate more good.
You can insult me all day long, asshole. Again, if you’re an indication of who supports Chip Flowers — whom I know and like, by the way — I won’t be voting for him.
JC: I don’t think I know him/her. I just don’t like astroturfers, or people who take disagreement as some sort of personal insult.
Geezer I’m interpreting a little differently. I thought Chip was saying the Treasurer’s office should invest the money but work in conjunction with DEDO to set the standards, not set the standards by itself.
Good grief, if your flare up with one poster is going to determine whether or not Chip gets your vote there is a problem. If you know and like Chip as you say, vote for him and give him the opportunity to try to make the office relevant. Stop resting your vote on RU, who the hell is he/she anyway!!
No one is astroturfing. I am who I am. Geezer, I don’t mind disagreements, but you started the insults. Again, I am not part of Chip’s campaign, though I like what he stands for – ideas for a better government. I think we have elected too many politicians who have no plan or no clue. Chip may not be perfect, but I think he has better ideas than Velda or Bonini.
When a lot of people whose names are new to the site show up to tout a candidate, that’s astroturfing — they’re pretending to be just regular folks when it’s obvious they’re fluffing their candidate.
TGMV: Read the excerpt again. DEDO would do marketing etc., while the Treasurer would put together the financial packages. It seems pretty clear to me that Chip wants to be in the driver’s seat. I oppose moving that responsibility from the governor’s office to the treasurer’s office, which is why I will find it difficult to vote for Chip despite liking him, and some of his ideas. But I might vote for him anyway, since I don’t think he’s going to be allowed to get that change enacted. I truly have not made up my mind, and probably won’t until Election Day.
I thought astroturfing meant multiple handles were posting from the same IP address? You have to expect that any candidate’s supporters are going to come out and support, particularly in a race as contentious as this one. I think both sides have been aggressive on this site and on the ground – JMHO.
Based on what I’ve heard at Chip’s speeches, he wants the treasurer’s office to structure the financial packages, which again makes sense under the role he wants the office to take as manager of the state’s funds. Where the money is concerned, the Treaurer’s office should be in the driver’s seat. DEDO should come up with ideas, the Treaurer’s Office should determine how the package is structured and both offices should work together to determine the standards. I think that is how his idea is supposed to be interpreted….but don’t quote me!
I’ve been away from my computer so forgive my late response. I have edited several comments that have deliberately broken our rules. If I have missed any, please let me know.
I comment on this blog often. What are you talking about Geezer? Its not that deep, I don’t thump for Chip. He’s a smart guy and I think he could answer your questions. I think he’s right that DEDO should find businesses, while the fund and money aspect should be handled by financial experts in the treasurers office. For example, in the recent sallie mae deal, DEDO gave them 19 million for 1500 jobs, while Delaware businesses can’t access the fund for the money that they need. Anytime we spend state money, there should be standards and I agree with Chip that DEDO seems to be able to spend money on any projects without some level of justification. All businesses should be able to apply to receive money from the fund. Does anyone remember the french fry machine? Yes, just because it makes it on the front page of the newjournal, doesn’t mean it makes financial sense. How many loans were declined from Delaware businesses? What are the standards? Why is this fund different? What if we could have helped 38 Delaware businesses with 500,000 a piece? This is not a slight to the Gov or Alan, but it seems that the fund is used for big projects though small businesses create jobs. To be frank, as a old political junkie that owns a business, I favor Chip really because he talks a lot about small businesses and access to capital which is a huge problem in Delaware. This is not political spin, but finance, which DEDO does not have the expertise to perform. Do you see Virginia crying about losing sallie mae for 19 million. They could have writtn a bigger check, but like a buyer who overpays, we were desperate for the jobs and a need to show the public that the officials were doing something. Sallie mae lost the battle with congress and dedo fell for the sales pitch. Financial experts would have valued the move at a lower price. 1500 jobs for 19 million, yeah, I think Ill stick with Chip.
Yeah, I could be wrong about what I’m calling it. By whatever name, I don’t like it. And no, I don’t expect that at all. Most races have not brought out anything of the sort. The people who regularly comment here might debate the races, but people dropping by just to tout their favorites have been in mercifully short supply. And I call it out every time I see it, no matter who the candidate. It’s not a bulletin board, and it’s not the News Journals letters column. It’s a site for people who enjoy discussing Delaware politics, not listening to stump speeches.
Your description of Chip’s plan for DEDO is exactly what I meant when I said he wanted to take it over. Deciding which companies get money and how much is not a task I want to hand to an elected official. We aren’t going to agree on that one.
My skepticism about Chip and his plan is not based on a lack of knowledge. I have real problems with some of the ideas. Ironically, if Chip were running to do the same caretaker function Velda does, he’d have my vote, because I think he’s a promising young talent. But I wouldn’t hire him to run DEDO because I don’t think he’s got the necessary experience — yet he wants to do make that just part of the office’s responsibilities. I think this is overreaching, just as I think Bonini’s auditor-like view of the office is similarly problematic. And this whisper campaign makes me question Velda’s judgment — she should have told her supporters to lay off that.
With all due respect, I have the advantage of not caring who wins, so my analysis is based on the factors that affect regular voters. Pointing out Bonini’s advantages in this race doesn’t constitute an endorsement.
You comment here often? Not under “ruserious,” you don’t. And while you’re entitled to your opinion, I don’t share it — not the part about turning economic development over to the treasurer, not the part about giving out money to small businesses, not the part about $19 million being too much to pay for 1,500 jobs, and not the part about giving whoever manages to win an election the discretion to spend gobs of money. You’re just going to have to get over the fact that I disagree with both you and Chip on this.
As I said, this Treasurer’s race seems to bring out the ultra-aggressiveness that can be ugly. Personally, I only get involved when posters like Fire Ant/SaltGirl etc. get on the site to talk crap about Chip and pump up Velda. Beyond that, I am interested in discussing the issues. To be honest, I only see this getting worse as we get closer to the primary. This is really the only site that allows for this to occur.
As to the other part of your post, I agree that we just disagree. But it took a healthy debate on the issues to get to this point. Fair enough.
ETA: What’s your issue with RU’s take on giving money to small businesses?
I think Fire Ant was angry because the nasty material is not having the effect he had hoped for.
Regarding “Mildly Curious”, the time-line was already pointed out. Let us look past that, though. What evidence is there to suggest Velda is crushing Chip? The only public data available is endorsements by representative districts. That has proven to be a very unreliable measure of actual popular strength. For one the people one representative district committees are hardly representative of the people in their districts. Those committees have 5-15 people on them with various personal agendas. Check out the vote totals. It is no coincidence nearly every “representative district” vote is laughingly in favor of one candidate, whether it was in 2008 for Markell-Carney and Stewart-Reed or Flowers-Potter in 2010. Carney and Reed won so many RD endorsements that they were easily propelled by them to the state party endorsement. Yet on election day they were both defeated. RD endorsements mean nothing. The total number of RD members is probably 200-300 and their agenda is not to select the strongest possible candidate, as they have shown time and again.
There is no public data on this race. The best clue we have is Velda’s smear campaign, hiding behind her husband Charles, towards Chip. If she were crushing him why risk a backlash from voters for such negativity? She may be a hypocrite for posing one way in public and authorizing her campaign to act in another but she is not stupid. The only rationale explanation for her action is her campaign has done some internal polling and the results scared them. What kind of result would terrify an incumbent? Trailing or being ahead by a small margin with a large number of undecideds who the crosstabs show strongly lean in favor of a “change” candidate. We know from national polls that a generic “new” candidate is ahead of a generic incumbent nearly 2:1. So even if Velda did a poll that has her at 30%, Flowers at 25% with the rest undecided that would scare the living daylights out of her. With 45% undecided in this hypothetical Chip would need just under a 56-44% split among the undecided to win. That is a very likely scenario given the long history of undecided voters breaking against the incumbent and the mood of the electorate this year. “Midly Curious” may think Velda is crushing Chip but clearly Velda and Charles are afraid of Chip. What would be really hilarious is if their polling showed Chip up 10% or so. No one knew who she is until she ran week long ads paid by Fidelty, which has a contract with her office, in newspapers across the state with a large photo of her and her name in large print. If they did a poll prior to receiving this in kind contribution worth thousands of dollars she very well could have been behind.
Appointed officials are more qualified than elected officials? That is an interesting argument. We have a state right next door that until recently had only one statewide elected official: New Jersey, which now elects a Lt. Gov as well. Which state has better governance? Delaware or New Jersey? A substantive answer would require a deep, national or at least regional study of various states with different methods of selecting top officials. I don’t have the time to do that. Perhaps Geezer or someone else could do that. The results, regardless of the outcome, would be interesting. However, the comparison across the river with New Jersey leads me to bet that states with elected officials produce better results.
Whether we should have appointed officials on policy grounds is an academic question, though. Geezer is advocating less democracy when the trend, both nationally and internationally, has been toward more democracy. I will trust voters over politicians, who have to consider numerous political interests in making appointments. (and sometimes other interests come into play, such as what led a New Jersey governor to designate a low-ranking sailor with no experience in anti-terrorism policy as the state’s chief homeland security adviser after 9/11) Is Velda Jones-Potter more qualified than elected treasurer Rob McCord in Pennsylvania? Is it just a coincidence that Velda’s husband happens to be a power broker in the state’s largest city, a city the governor who appointed her happened to lose badly in the 2008 primary? Maybe it is. Maybe no one else in Delaware was more qualified. Even if we accept that, though, Mr. McCord compares very favorably with Mrs. Potter. He also fares well in a comparison with New Jersey’s appointed treasurer, Andrew Eristoff. How about Delaware’s last elected treasurer? Mr. Markell has a great resume and performed well in office.
You’re going to rest your case on the fact that New Jersey didn’t have an elected Lt. Gov. and it’s more crooked than Delaware, therefore we should elect all our officials? That’s pretty weak.
Interestingly, Chip Flowers himself made that exact case when I challenged him on this — that there’s a “trend toward democracy,” as if that makes any difference to the argument.
Your examples make your case well. But examples like Karen Weldin Stewart and Janet Rzewnicki make mine — in fact, Rzewnicki’s shortcomings, real or imagined, led to the reorganization of the office. Town managers also make my case. With an appointed official, you don’t have to wait until the next election to remove a bum from office.
And whether people like you who are active in politics like it or not, we are under intense pressure to reduce the size and expense of state government. The constitution should be amended to abolish the office; we do not need either the election or the high salary to perform the job.
I do find it odd that so many Flowers supporters find a need to argue these points. You’ve got a good candidate with a good message. I happen to think he’s a bit of a BS artist, which is not much of a drawback in politics — Joe Biden is probably the biggest BS artist in the state. I don’t agree with his ideas for the office, and indeed think they obscure what should be his message — he’s a bright young guy with great training and more energy than his opponent in the primary. Why bog things down with a program that might turn off voters like me?
I think Chip has an excellent chance of winning the primary. I think the general will be harder.
That isn’t what I said. I left open the possibility that appointed officials>elected officials and said it would be interesting to see a comprehensive study done on the matter. The only data I have available is comparing New Jersey to Delaware and Velda Jones-Potter with Rob McCord and Jack Markell.
There are a variety of methods of selecting judges at the state level. One method (I think this is in Missouri) has a commission nominate three candidates and the governor make the final decision. Something like that could work because that would remove the political interests of the governor from the equation, assuming the commission is legitimate and not packed with cronies.
The trend goes to realism. Even if it is determined by political experts that appointed officials perform better than elected officials there is no chance that Delaware will go the New Jersey route and make the attorney general, auditor, insurance commissioner and treasurer positions appointed offices. (some states have other elected officials, such as secretary of state and railroad commissioner)
Yes, there is a trend toward economy in government, both nationally and internationally. Shifting some elected offices to the appointed column should be part of that conversation, but that is a drop in the bucket when it comes to the state budget.
You made an interesting point that I, as someone interested in the workings of government, commented on. What exactly do my comments on the relative merits of elected and appointed officials have to do with Flowers? Do you think he cares what is being said on a blog about whether the treasurer should be appointed? He knows there is no chance of that happening.
I think he cares very much, or none of these discussions would be going on. And the whole first half of your comment was about Chip Flowers and his chances of winning his primary. Did you think I wouldn’t notice?
Your interest in discussing forms of government never led you to this site before — or any of the others Flowers people, either, I might add. Christ, you people are transparent. Give it a freaking rest.
Come on Geezer. It’s quite apparent Jefferson was a bit late to the discussion and was adding his thoughts on the original topic of discussion. Don’t be a jerk…the rest of his comments are directed towards a healthy discussion about elected v. appointed officials.
Stop being so suspicious and discuss…though some of us like Chip and his message, we are not drones and can discuss issues intelligently.
No, but it lead me to spend 4 years studying it in college… Regarding the first half of the comment, did you read the OP? Of course I had to address that. You made an interesting point. Don’t sell yourself short, or be consumed with conspiracy theories regarding the magician Flowers. Your reasoning makes no sense. I support Flowers. I commented on a thread about Flowers. Therefore everything I say is co-signed by Flowers? That is absurd. Does Flowers give a damn about railroad commissioners or methods of selecting judges in Missouri or the expanded powers of the Lt. Gov in Texas? I made a reasonable proposal that would appoint officials based on qualifications and minimize the political influence of the governor. You completely ignored that and turned the discussion back to Flowers. Flowers, Flowers, Flowers! Everything is about Flowers to you. What is your obsession with Flowers??? With you it seems very personal.
LOL at invoking the site and length of posting history. The site has two words in its name. Delaware and liberal. Maybe I fairly recently moved to Delaware and just became interested in Delaware politics? Ever think of that? If I am here solely to shill for Flowers in 2010 doesn’t logic suggest that I would have been here doing the same in 2008 for Carney or Markell in the gubernatorial race? Or Obama, Clinton, Edwards, or Biden in the presidential race? I was nowhere to be seen then. I didn’t care whether Carney or Markell won, although I did have a favored candidate in the presidential race and made my views known on national websites.
You are being consumed by paranoia. The notion that Flowers gives a damn about what is said on a blog about whether statewide officials should be appointed or elected is absurd. Why would he care? He knows that shift will never happen. Even if it somehow did happen it would be after he is elected and one presumes he, and the other statewide officials, would in effect be grandfathered in by not having the changes take effect until 2016. Do you think Biden, Flowers, Stewart, Wagner/Korn/Matlusky will roll over and have their positions become appointed in the next election cycle? They would lobby against it and if they saw the legislature had the votes to make their offices appointive they would then seek to effectively grandfather themselves in by preventing the change from occurring before their next election cycle.
Delaware liberal. I was a New Jersey liberal when voters were asked to choose whether a Lt. Gov., who would be elected, should be created. Prior to that the state senate president assumed the duties of governor–while retaining his senate role–if the governor resigned or died. The vote was not even close. I think it was something like 56-44 in favor of creating a Lt. Gov. There is a tendency toward inertia in matters such as this. If a large percentage of people favored making such a significant change in the direction of more democracy, even though the previous system had worked well in the preceding years (DiFranceso, Codey) what makes you think Delaware voters would opt to make a change in the direction of less democracy? If your argument was to, say, make the head of DNREC elected then that would be feasible but to ask voters to remove power from themselves and give it to one person, the governor, is simply not feasible.
It’s not paranoia. It’s simple addition. The subject is Flowers, and lots of people who have never been here before have suddenly been added to what is usually a very stable roster of commenters. You both are protesting an awful lot for people who supposedly aren’t doing what it’s obvious you’re doing. Put down the shovel and stop digging.
I’ve already said what would make Delaware voters move toward appointing the officials — it would save money. And of course, the voters would have nothing to say about it. This isn’t New Jersey — we have no right of referendum here. A constitutional change would have to pass two consecutive General Assemblies, and I seriously doubt anyone would base a vote for state rep or senator on how that person voted in such an arcane matter.
You needn’t worry. Both parties consider it a breeding ground for future candidates for higher office.
As for the discussion, I’m not really that interested. I’m here to point out how desperate Chip Flowers supporters are to win every argument. Stop fluffing for him here and I’ll stop answering.
Sheesh Geezer. So new people can’t post here, especially if they like a particular candidate? Last time I checked, this was a free site where people can share their views. You need to talk to posters who pop in, pump up their candidate and leave. Maybe you’ll shut the hell up about this once the elections are over – and we are still here. Let it go, there is nothing egregious about either of our posts….
Back to the discussion at hand. If the Treasurer’s position were appointed, how would you conduct the appointment? I think Jefferson’s idea about a commission nominating three candidates is a good one. It would keep the process a little more neutral but in the end would allow the govenor to choose who he/she wanted (hopefully the best of the three, but you know how that goes). I am all for only the most qualified people to be nominated in the event it occurred.
I just think voters are way too apathetic about what are perceived as secondary offices and not important. The responsibilities for these offices need to be more clear cut making it easier for voters to understand their roles. Even then, it may not matter, the appointed route may ultimately be the way we are headed.
You are making insinuations. It is funny how you keep doing that yet threatened to have a poster banned from here earlier in this thread when someone made an insinuation about you…It is obvious you have some sort of personal agenda vis-a-vis Flowers. What is it? You are acting as if you are the posting police of message boards/blogs. How about leading by example? What is your agenda vis-a-vis Flowers? You have made insinuations regarding me and Flowers. Why not lead by example and tell us what the source of your obsession with Flowers is?
Of course voters would have a say via the legislature. Yes, few people care about those offices but you are incorrect if you think people would roll over and let the legislature take the power to select the attorney general, treasurer, auditor, and insurance commissioner from them and give it to one person. That would be a very controversial move. I can’t see it happening. Again, looking through your Flowers lens, even if it did we all know the legislature isn’t going to give Markell the power to appoint the treasurer, auditor, and attorney general in 2014 and the Lt. Gov. and insurance commissioner in 2012. They will be loath to do so for a variety of reasons. One of them is, as you noted, these statewide offices are good launching pads for higher office. Why would Democrats in the legislature risk removing Denn, Biden, Flowers/Potter by placing their posts at the mercy of Markell? Markell presumably will be re-elected. What will he do in 2016? There will be Senate and House elections that year. Markell could easily weaken possible primary opponents for those positions by replacing Denn/Biden/Flowers with cronies. That would be good for Markell, bad for the party and its bench. Of course, this isn’t likely. Removing, say, Denn would be controversial and Markell likely would opt to avoid controversy and retain Denn. However, it can be done because we have seen Lt. governors removed from tickets by powerful governors numerous times in other states. This is for Denn. It would be easy to remove Flowers or Jones-Potter since they would occupy a lower office. Biden would be more difficult because of Joe.
The financial argument would not work. It cost taxpayers money to create a Lt. Gov. They have to pay the Lt. Gov.’s salary and the salary of her staff. The cost of a Lt. Gov., or an insurance commissioner’s office, is a drop in the state budget bucket hence this was not a big factor in the NJ debate. The arguments for creation of a LG revolved around the “more democracy” concept. 1) A LG is elected by all voters, not voters of one of 40 senate districts 2) The LG in NJ runs on a ticket with the governor so it would keep the governor’s mansion in the hands of the same party 3) The previous system created obvious separation of powers problems 4) Having a LG would allow more opportunities for women and minorities to reach the governorship (2 of the 3 nominees for LG were women in 09′). The chief argument for the previous system was efficiency. It was the closest thing to having a prime minister that the state could have had.
“Back to the discussion at hand. If the Treasurer’s position were appointed, how would you conduct the appointment?”
He doesn’t care, TGMV. All he cares about is Flowers, Flowers, Flowers! You raised a great, fundamental question. To shift the selection of statewide officials from voters to the governor comes with its own problems. Look at the appointment of Velda. Does anyone think Markell getting clobbered in Wilmington by Carney was not a factor in that selection? The other issue, and I am sure someone deeply concerned about this like Geezer has thought about this, is if officials are appointed that opens the door to appointments from other states. For example, the treasurer of New Jersey is a former New York City councilman. Delaware has 0.9 million people. New Jersey has 9 million people and Pennsylvania 12 million people. If the objective is to strictly find the most qualified person for the job the numbers say that person most likely does not live in Delaware. Would Delaware voters approve of a system where the right to select key statewide officials was taken from them, given to the governor and then used to select people from out of state? In New Jersey it isn’t an issue because no one cares who the treasurer is. Delaware is a state where the treasurer’s office has produced Carper and Markell. In next door Pennsylvania it produced Governor Casey and Senator Casey.
Another message board I just posted that the Chicago Bulls will win 55 games and the #3 seed in the East next season. I suppose Flowers is behind that too lol?
I’ll be very surprised if you’re still here next week, let alone after the election. I didn’t threaten to ban anyone — I noted that the personal attacks on me violated board policy. And I’m not insinuating anything — I’m flat-out saying that you’re here because you support Chip Flowers, and you want people reading this to think you’re just some unaffiliated guy who loves government. I”m not buying it, and I don’t think others are, either.
You can post here all you want, and so can I.
By the way, I think bringing in people from other states is one of the key reasons to make the positions appointed. But I never said anything about AG or the auditor. That was you.
The budget of NJ is far greater than Delaware’s. Every little bit counts here, and our revenue sources are much shakier than New Jersey’s. You aren’t in Jersey anymore.
I have no personal issue whatsoever with Chip Flowers. I’d be a lot more impressed with him if he had actually accomplished something in his life, but mainly I don’t like his ideas for the treasurer’s office. I think they’re self-aggrandizing, dangerous and a needless distraction in a state that has enough problems. I’m only saying it over and over again because you folks won’t let it die.
One more point: I’m only anonymous because someone tried to get me fired for using my real name. Why are you?