Where Is The Tea Party Outrage?
As Arizona readies to slip into a totalitarian state that would rival Stalin’s Soviet Union, all I hear from the Tea Party is crickets . . . very white crickets. The NY Times writes:
The law . . . would make the failure to carry immigration documents a crime and give the police broad power to detain anyone suspected of being in the country illegally.
Everywhere I’ve read, it boils down to this: white, black, brown or whatever, one will have to carry papers that state they are a citizen of the United States. So next time you go to Arizona, be ready for a cop with a German accent stopping you and asking, “Papers please?”
As someone who is used to hearing hyperbolic, sky-is-falling rants from extremists on the right and left, I think the outrage about this bill by most people is wholly warranted. While nemski offers an extreme analogy above, I can’t help but agree this could very well be the outcome this piece-of-shit legislation delivers.
This type of thing is passed to give the wingnut base a boner without any thought of what the law does or how it can be enforced. More evidence that Republicans are all about getting elected but don’t give a shit about governing.
The good news: the White House reaction.
The law is even more outrageous than nemski described. There’s a provision in the law for citizens to sue law enforcement if they don’t think it’s being enforced. This is going to end up costing Arizona a lot of money because I have no doubt there will be suits from both sides – those who feel their rights have been violated and those that are mad some brown guy they saw didn’t get harassed.
When has the U.S. ever made it mandatory to have to carry citizenship papers and have to produce them on command?
I imagine that this law will be declared unConstitutional and no doubt provoke a huge fight (which is not what Republicans want I think). Enforcement of immigration laws has always been a federal law enforcement issue and not a local one.
Jason, I also think it’s strong evidence that Republicans don’t want small government. They want government to serve their needs and fears and to ignore everyone else’s.
And representative Raul Grijalva closed two of his constituent offices because he and his staff are getting death threats because of his opposition to this bit of fascism.
There was a large boycott effort when AZ wouldn’t ratify and recognize MLK Day. Time to start a new boycott.
Simple fix: launch a Federal raid and prosecution of the employer of any illegal caught under this new law. AZ employers will be demanding repeal by the end of the month.
It is the employers of these undocumented workers that have made sure that immigration law is so schizophrenic here. Focus on the places where you have lots of undocumented employees, make sure the employers pays a hefty price and a great deal of the problem goes away.
When black and Hispanic AZ cops start pulling over whites claiming we’re checking for eastern European illegals too, that’s when the shit will hit the fan.
in fact, AZ cops of color should begin questioning white folk’s status as a form of protest.
silly liberals. civil liberties only apply to ‘real americans’ i.e no jews, brown people or democrats who arent david duke
Audit: 43 Arizona businesses have illegal staff
Arizona Daily Star ^
More than half of the Arizona businesses that had their workforces audited by Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents since last July have been found to have illegal workers on their payrolls. Immigration department spokeswoman Virginia Kice says that 43 of the 84 companies screened in two rounds of audits have been sent letters listing employees whose employment eligibility is suspect. The agency’s policy is not to name the companies with illegal employees unless they are disciplined with a fine or other measure. Besides violation notices, two of the 43 companies with illegal workers were informed of pending fines. ICE agents…
Cool. The new “papers please” stops should identify even more illegal employers.
Can we all agree that the federal government has failed to curb illegal immigration ?
If the government or a state were serious about curbing illegal immigration they would go after the businesses that employ them. It will be interesting to watch how this unfolds in AZ – a state who’s economy is very dependent on undocumented workers.
This law is based on an emotional outcry; there is very little thought or logic behind it.
Which is it, Tea Party? Too much govt or not enough? Make up your damn minds!
I think that we can agree that our business community hasn’t done much reduce the incentives for undocumented workers to come here. If there is no work, they don’t come here in nearly as many numbers. Which you could see almost a year ago — the number of people coming here slowed dramatically and many who were here and could not work due to the economy went home.
Turn off the work spigot and lots of this problem goes away.
I agree it hasn’t been stopped because the business community does not want it to stop. Sorry, you’re never going to stop the illegal immigration by picking on the immigrants. You’re only going to stop it by changing the incentives. The AZ bill is a Hispanic harassment bill. If AZ was serious they’d pass a bill aimed at businesses that hire the immigrants. I think the U.S. should also work with Mexico on some economic development so that the incentives are reduced on their side as well.
But business can’t turn off the spigot – it’s built its survival (economy) on these workers. This is just another example of the price paid by catering to the lunatic fringe. People for this law will be the first screaming when the price of produce, construction and dining out goes up.
If this law stays in effect, AZ is in big financial trouble, and not just from the multitude of lawsuits generated from both sides. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
And, keep in mind, AZ is already one of those federal welfare states, so Xstryker is correct – they are conflicted.
What’s missing in all this is a Federal law that makes it illegal to employ illegals. Everybody thinks this law exists but it does not, not really.
Currently it is a legal defense to say you didn’t know your employee was illegal, or that they showed you a fake ID. There is a Federal database called E-Verify where employers can check work status, but it is optional.
The IRS sends out “no match” letters listing all the SSNs working for you that don’t exist in their database. But there is a very high threshhold to trigger enforcement.
Real immigration reform would:
1. Provide a stiff penalty for any employer caught with even one worker who is not in the E-Verify database;
2. Provide increased follow-up and enforcement of no-match letters
None of the proposals address the employer loopholes. Legalization, amnesty, guest workers, path to citizenship, border patrols, but still no employer requirement or increased penalties. I don’t know why we have branded this as “comprehensive immigration reform.”
I don’t understand why Democrats should get behind legalization and amnesty proposals. Frankly we need the jobs back, and we need to put “work” back onto a legal footing.
I think an employer crackdown bill would have bipartisan support, at least from people who don’t get contributions from corporations.
Yes, I think there’s a lot of businesses whose profit model depends on low pay for their workers. If we really need more foreign workers, why don’t we just let more people immigrate?
If this law is enforced AZ might be facing a big cost of living increase. Bet that will go over well.
If we really need more foreign workers, why don’t we just let more people immigrate?
Because if they are legal they get all those socialist anti-business protections like workplace safety, minimum wage, and civil rights.
If this law is enforced AZ might be facing a big cost of living increase.
If AZ (or the whole US for that matter) is experiencing a cost of living that is artificially kept down only by illegal employment – then we NEED to have a higher cost of living.
Or maybe we would decide to make our own beds and cut our own damn grass and then the cost of living wouldn’t have to go up at all (partly snark, partly true).
Allowing more immigrants is one solution to the increasing the number of workers per SS recipient ratio in the future.
A lot of illegals are paying into Social Security and not collecting benefits. Still, that is not how I prefer to fund the system.
As soon as we legalize the current population of illegals, their legal status will immediately make them more expensive to employ, and employers will once again seek to employ a new wave of illegals.
We have already been through this loop with Reagan’s amnesty; that is how we got to today’s situation. It will never stop until we turn off the jobs magnet, by making the penalties for hiring illegals steeper than the rewards.
I’ve spent time on business in Yuma. The border crossings are ridiculous and anyone owning a truck has a good chance of it being stolen by those crossing over & needing transportation.
It’s not just a Democratic or Republican problem…It’s a Washington problem.
It is a shame. I liked our family visit to Arizona last year. I will no be going back. I don’t carry my citizenship papers on me (BTW what counts… birth certificate? passport? cable bill?) and I don’t want to end up in the hoosegow.
KO and Pierce point out that Arizona profits off certain Latin Americans:
http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/pierce/2010/04/twilight_zona.html
E-verify is not the end-all be-all solution to the problem (http://www.ogletreedeakins.com/publications/index.cfm?Fuseaction=PubDetail&publicationid=1139). What good is a program that has a 50% error rate in it’s reporting?
E-verify is not the end-all be-all solution to the problem
No, but a valid E-verify confirmation number would be a better defense than “I didn’t know” or “I’m shocked–Shocked! to find there are illegal workers in my company.”
“This law is based on an emotional outcry; there is very little thought or logic behind it”
Pandora, we can say that on just about anything any legislature passes 🙂
You know, speaking of emotion,…if a Republican ever gets elected President again, (some dim witted fraud like Palin say)…who doubts that this kind of BS would not go into overdrive?
It would all be in the name of “security” of course and Teabaggers would not utter a peep.
“It is a shame. I liked our family visit to Arizona last year. I will no be going back. I don’t carry my citizenship papers on me (BTW what counts… birth certificate? passport? cable bill?) and I don’t want to end up in the hoosegow.”
Don’t worry jason. As long as you don’t have an Obama sticker on your car, you don’t “fit the description” of an illegal.
You folks write as if it’s only workers. Those workers come w/ families, who are supported, perhaps not by paycheck, but have full access to our schools, emergency care and other services too. Go ahead and punish the employer as the serpent’s head–but, remember one worker equals exponentially lots of ill gotten benefit. Just say’in.
If the workers went home, there are plenty of unemployed Americans who would finally have a chance. I resent that Americans have to go through reference checks,psyche tests, background checks, and sometimes credit checks. We have to verify education. Some guy walks across with none of it and hardly even speaks the language and gets the job.
I do not blame the guy that walks across. I blame the people who perpetuate this. Control the borders then we can increase the legal numbers allowed.
I do not like the approach used in the AZ law, but as one who actually read it, I do not see the sky falling. It does not require that you carry your papers. If you get arrest for something else, you may need to prove that you are here legally. It would be nice if you had it one you, but it can be brought to you. If the sheriff comes out and finds you wandering around the border, it may help to have ID on you.
The law seems more aimed at criminal elements. It makes it a third degree felony to be in possession of drugs and weapons if you are here illegally. I don’t see the objection to eliminating criminal trafficking.
you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, David. What you described is the soon-to-be “old” way the police could inquire about illegal status, meaning during the course of a crime or violation. In a couple months, it’s being brown and wearing a Chivas jersey. Remember, there was an apologist wingnut on national TV saying that cops will be able to identify illegals by the kind of shoes they wear! Yes, by all means, make excuses for these bigots; it’s the company you keep. If they had their way, eventually they’d come after you!
Where do you get your information anyway? What’s sad is that you constantly and so cavalierly state erronious information as fact. And you wonder why no one here ever takes you seriously!
“Most police agencies or jails here already check the immigration status of people charged with a crime, in consultation with Immigration and Customs Enforcement, but the new law would expand that power and allows the police to stop people on the suspicion of being in the country without documents.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/us/22immig.html
Now David, come clean. Did you actually read the bill or just carrying water again? What’s your excuse?
Joanne,
Undocumented workers pay taxes and generally don’t collect benefits. Mexico also has universal health care so health care in America is a step down for them. In fact, the new health care law has blocked undocumented workers from participating in the exchange with their own money, so we’ll still have people showing up at the emergency room for expensive health care.
“You folks write as if it’s only workers. Those workers come w/ families”
I have searched in vain for documentation of this claim, routinely made by those on the right, without finding any. I would be happy if Joanne or David could provide a link.
The reason I’d like one is that my own anecdotal experience is quite the opposite. The barracks and old trailers used to house mushroom workers upstate are packed to the gills with young men. So are those Georgetown frame houses where they sleep in shifts. Neither condition is conducive to married life, let alone life with kids; indeed, one of the distinguishing features of the Delaware immigrant communities I’ve seen is the lack of children.
UI said, “Mexico also has universal health care so health care in America is a step down for them.”
At least I got a good laugh this morning.
Geezer, My anecdotal experience mirrors yours HERE in DELAWARE. As a person/human being/health care provider who is immigrant/Latino friendly, the “single male” we are seeing is the more “adventurous” and able bodied, who can travel light w/o family and make that living. The border states are an entirely different set-up. The ability to integrate unnoticed, and ease to move freely between borders and border towns is a whole ‘nother beast. Delaware would be hollerin’ too, if we faced the strain on public services, some of these border states have to contend with. Look how Delaware whines now, about New Jersey moves-ins who pay less taxes:)! Seriously, it’s AZ’s problem, they don’t feel the feds have held up their end of the oversight, let them try to solve it–erroneous as they may be–maybe it will get them the attention and match lit to address the situation. I just don’t choose to second guess what they feel the need to do, anymore than I welcome their opinion on beach replenishment. You gotta live it sometimes Geezer.
“I have searched in vain for documentation of this claim, routinely made by those on the right, without finding any. I would be happy if Joanne or David could provide a link.”
Geezer, you only need to drive through Georgetown and see the parade of Hispanic women with kids trailing behind and baby carriages loaded, or visit a public school in lower sussex.
Yes Geezer they do live in shared housing, and they share the responsibilities of their extended families. This fact is one reason they can survive on such low wages.
The looooooooooooong history of Red Clay SD needing English Language support clearly belies that mushroom country pickers aren’t producing children.
Two – three years ago, DEDO produced a study on illegals in Delaware (30K estimated?). Deb Hudson requested the report and the screaming and yelling when Judy Cherry delivered it was heard from Georgetown to Hockessin. DEDO wrote a report on illegals? Indefensible! No problem with illegals in Delaware!! Just because I have to press #2 for English when I call Wilmington Trust Company? No…no problem here.
Industry wants cheap labor and the borders are wide open for that very reason – they flooded the country when Reagan stopped enforcing the law and especially heavily starting in the 1990’s and of course it cost us plenty. It has cost the Republicans politically. The Rove-Bush compact of GOP-4-EVAH had its first serious challenge when the Republicans divided into factions for and against immigration control, IIRC.
I have a first hand anecdote: When I was working on a horse farm in Chesapeake City, MD in 2003, a highly valued employee, who also happened to be here illegally, had a heart attack. They drove him to Christiana Hospital and then they flew him back to Mexico. The farm General Manager told me that the bill was $50K and that it was going to be swallowed by the hospital.
None of this defends the AZ law, BTW.
Here’s a friend’s comments from fb this morning:
Thenew AZ law that seems to permit ‘ethnic’ profiling could survive a challenge on those grounds alone. But it transgresses the federal power of supervention. There are some tasks in which the various States are not entitled to undertake individual policies. They can’t, e.g., form treaties with other Nations. Protecting the border is another. It is less likely SCROTUS would uphold AZ on this than on privacy grounds.
Check those feeder patterns, Nancy. The Spanish speakers don’t come from Hockessin (Red Clay takes in some of the poorest parts of Wilmington), and in general don’t come from foreign countries. Many illegals start families with others they find in the US, making those children US citizens.
For that matter, how many Spanish speakers are in the Georgetown schools?
“Look how Delaware whines now, about New Jersey moves-ins who pay less taxes”
That might be the case in your neck of the woods; New Castle County has always had more non-natives in its population. Nobody up here whines about retirees from other states, though I believe an overhaul of tax codes (more property taxes, lower income taxes) could solve that problem.
BTW, I tend to agree with people in Arizona on beach replenishment. And I therefore have an opinion about unsustainable development in the middle of the dessert.
The chicken plants in Sussex county are still hiring. Anybody, who is willing & able, can get hired to do a miserable job.
I call Wilmington Trust several times a week as part of my job-I have never heard “Press 2 for English.”
Just because someone speaks a foreign language as their primary language does NOT mean they are an illegal immigrant.
Arizona’s “Papers please” law is one of the scariest things I have ever heard of in America. There are no criteria that they will be able to craft that will make this law workable and constitutional unless they so narrowly construct the selection criterion that it is completely ineffective to its stated ends. In either case, this law should be thrown out. Will they require that some symbol be sewn onto the sleeves to identify the legal immigrants? A gold star maybe? Is this really what we as Americans want? Do we really want to associate ourselves this closely with that type of heritage? I, for one, do not.
Gez go to my site and click the link and read the bill. It is aimed at the criminal population. As I said if they find you near the border or have a tip, you may have to prove yourself eventually. It would help to have proof with you, but it is not required. It is a $500 fine to be in the country illegally under this law. If ICE picks you up, you can be deported. If not, pay the fine and AZ gets some of its money back for services.
The law doesn’t get serious until you start talking about people picked up for criminal activity.
Don’t read the NYT at least read a real paper like the Washington Post or WSJ. They can not go up to you on the street and demand your papers. There has to be a reasonable suspicion beforehand.
Is it vague, yes. Do I like that part? No. Will it do what you say? No. I see more abuse by someone calling in an hispanic looking neighbor or co-worker they had a dispute with than law enforcement just running around demanding papers which is not allowed under the laws of the country.
NO IT IS NOT, DAVID.
Your assessment is incorrect; deal with it.
“Unsustainable development in the middle of the desert (sic)”–so said the old guy, when Palm Springs, St. George, Las Vegas, and Scottsdale became desert destinations w/ incredible real estate value. I married into a family that held that same belief when they sold the old “Lizard Ranch” for 25 cents an acre during the Depression. Amazing what irrigation can do.
Irrigation largely paid for by Federal taxpayers — not the people amassing all of that land wealth.
Timing was everything cass.
And apparently we found something that the Federal government could do right, then.
Sorry, Joanne, but I’ve been there, too. It’s unsustainable because the water is finite but the greed of people who develop the land is not. Amazing what greed can do. Since you’re so approving of it, I add you to the list of the greedy.
Yup, but you can’t tell a “real” westerner. My brother-in-law is a water rights attorney, and believe me, they shoot over a boulder diverting a stream to a piece of property! As a family we had to take “water turns” right up until the grandparents death (well in their nineties) in 2007. And it’s still that way, where they are. People back here, can’t even imagine having a calendar of your water turn to irrigate–no matter what hour day or night.
My yup was for cassandra–but if you want to put me on your greedy list Geezer–at least give the family back some of the Lizard Ranch.
Yes, and people back here can’t imagine a bunch of “self-sufficient” westerners who live more off the federal dole than most poor people east of the Mississippi. Just because they don’t realize they’re assholes doesn’t mean they’re not.
Water rights and timing still would not be nearly the issue out west if the Feds and taxpayers didn’t provide much of the infrastructure to provide water so that people could grow cotton or have green lawns in the desert. It is always funny to hear Westerners puff up their chests over how *independent* they are, when they are some of the most Federally subsidized people in the country.
I call Wilmington Trust several times a week as part of my job-I have never heard “Press 2 for English.
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My comment wasn’t meant to imply that this is a current practice. In the ‘great transition’ somewhere in the early 2000’s –when banks began to want a share of what the south and latin Americans were sending home to their families and wanted to get them to open bank accounts and sell them houses– when we first started seeing the signs in English and spanish in stores etc, Wilmington Trust had their phone messaged that way. Hopefully, they got enough flak to remove it.
Agreed cassandra–but we all know Hoover Dam is one of the 8 Wonders of the World :)!!
We have our own water problems here in Delaware but you probably haven’t heard much about it.
One of the water commissions reported a few years ago (I heard it from Vic Singer, a commissioner) that Delaware is sucking water out of the surrounding states. We are already using more than our fair share of potable water, evidently.
Also because of over-heated new residential growth –feeding transfer taxes into county revenue stream– NCC storm water infrastructure improvement was a big ticket item in the last 6-7 years.
Oops! All of that new developmemt upstream from existing property owners…like those in Glenville…had some hidden costs. The county and state ponied up 17+ million in 2004-5 to purchase those properties –drowned from the creeks that flow from the Pennsylvania through Hockessin etc. (We did get some of the $$ back from the feds – those downstream homeowners still talk glowingly about how helpful George Smiley and Paul Clark were in getting them top dollar for their flooded houses).
And that was when the county went head-long into their storm water amnesty program under new executive Coons – to repair all of the non-functioning stormwater ponds at county expense so that they could continue to service the construction industry and the lucrative development infill of the northern peidmont.
The state declared the need for a stormwater utility that now raises funds as we build and build but the City of Wilmington still has sanitary sewers overflowing and seeping solide human waste out into the Brandywine when it rains. You would have thought that Markell would have spent the stimulus money on that disaster first.
Check those feeder patterns, Nancy.
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Geezer, I think I was hearing about special ELL services for Red Clay before busing even, wasn’t I? And before there was the huge hispanic-speaking population in Wilmington that exists today.
The City of Wilmington has been working on its CSO problems for some years now including installation of controlling technology to the system which shuts down overflowing portions and since the hospital is in a major building mode, part of their deal is a joint project with the city to revamp and rebuild a portion of the CSO by that property. I think that this latter portion does get some ARRA funds (not sure tho) and the City does have at least one major stormwater project in the works from ARRA to help prevent these overflows.
Oh my Lord, some of you have been watching way too many old WWII movies.
I will say upfront that I have not read the AZ law (too busy), but, by all accounts, it can only be enforced as a secondary offence. Consequently, no one will be walking up to people on the streets in AZ asking for “papers.” Here is how the scenario would play out (as I see it):
– Someone is doing 55 mph in a 45 mph zone
– Officer pulls individual over and asks for….wait for it…driver’s license, registration, and proof of insurance. (Sound familiar?)
– The offender admits not having one or all of these items.
– The officer then investigated further and may even inquire as to citizenship (as allowable under Supreme Court ruling on Muehler et al. vs. Mena).
– The offender is either found to be in this country legally or he or she is not.
These are not exactly Gestapo tactics.
Further, while I can not speak for the Tea Party movement, I can say that there are functions that I expect the Federal Government to perform and there are functions that they certainly should not. Under the 10th amendment to the US Constitution, any duty not specifically delegated to the federal government (in the Constitution) is reserved by the states and the people therein. Most of the federal laws on the books are not specifically delegated to the federal government. However, they are allowed because we have become complacent and have allowed our Congress to usurp our power under the guise that these items fall under “interstate commerce.” On the other hand, immigration is something that WAS specifically delegated to the federal government within the four corners of the Constitution. It is my belief that when the federal government fails to live up to its responsibility, it is not only the states’ right to pick up the slack, it is their duty.
I am not looking to get me head chewed off or to be called every name in the book, I just wanted to help some of you to see another point of view (even if you don’t agree). My point of view does not make me racist (I am not the one saying that illegal alien = Latino because I know that there are illegal aliens of all ethnic backgrounds here) nor a xenophobe.
Weren’t our politicians just requiring “papers” to enter their town hall meetings?