Overreacting to ACORN

Filed in Delaware, National by on September 18, 2009

I am a little disturbed by the latest round of ACORN bashing in Washington this week.  After a pair of conservative actors staged their own sting operation to see if ACORN employees would help them operate an illegal business, there have been a slew of actions taken.  ACORN has lost business that they had with the census bureau and the House voted to defund the grants to ACORN through HUD.

I guess that the question in my mind is whether these are bad apples in ACORN or a systemic problem.  Apparently, ACORN is conducting staff training to fix the problems in the next few days.  But certainly the damage has been done.

Also, I wonder if the ACORN issue is a bit overblown.  We are disturbed by the fact that a pimp and his prostitute would be helped to evade the tax law and make their activities look legitimate.  But are we equally disturbed that there are many more multi-millionaires that are hiding their profits in off-shore tax havens with the help of accountants and lawyers at their beck and call.

ACORN does get dinged because they receive some federal funding whereas those lawyers are privately funded, but is that really what bothers us?  I think that we have come to expect the rich to avoid taxes by any means necessary.  Hell, I know people that have owned restaurants that avoided taxes as a part of their day-to-day operations.

All of these are distasteful, but now that ACORN has been tagged for it, real people are going to suffer.  ACORN along with CLASI worked with the State of Delaware to ensure that people that are falling behind in their mortgages are able to get legal counseling to keep them in their home and to negotiate with lenders.  That just happened this week, but things like this get overshadowed by the conservative witch hunt to find bad ACORN employees.

It is useful to know what inspired the conservative guy that set up the sting.  He said that he got so angry when he saw ACORN helping people break into the homes that that they had been evicted from in foreclosure.

On that day in May, he was still burning mad after watching a YouTube video of ACORN workers breaking padlocks off foreclosed homes and barging in. “I was upset,” he said.

What is so upsetting, I wonder?  That these people would be living in a home that a bank owned?  This guy got mad over the property rights of a bank?  Really?  A non-human, non-voting, legal entity that likely has received millions of dollars in aid from the American people in the past 12 months, that is who he is standing up for?  And who is this witchhunt hurting?

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  1. D.C. says:

    So we should just ignore all of their nefarious and fraudulent behaviors?

    I don’t care what inspired him (by the way they were committing yet more crime the day they were breaking into those houses.) ACORN is a fringe group that is subsidized using taxpayer dollars. They shouldn’t get one more penny of our money. Thankfully the vast majority of Congress agrees.

  2. Exactly, lg. Why are we going after small fries like ACORN? I’m more upset by the people who have bankrupted this country. The ACORN thing is just a distraction.

    I certainly think ACORN could have done a better job training their employees, but these a low-paid community organizers not highly paid CEOS.

  3. liberalgeek says:

    We ignore all sorts of much worse fraudulent behaviors in our accountants and lawyers for fortune 500 companies. At least ACORN helps people. Sadly, I think that D.C. doesn’t think of poor people as Real Americans.

    If ACORN helped farmers in red states keep their farms, D.C. would be demanding that Congress fully fund them.

  4. RICO says:

    ACORN? they have been in the news? what for?

  5. rhubard says:

    “ACORN is a fringe group that is subsidized using taxpayer dollars.”

    Sort of like Halliburton.

  6. a. price says:

    It is because they tied ACORN to Obama. it is getting attention because it is a part of the Right wing and Fixed news’ goal to make the president look bad….. maybe if ACORN is horribly corrupt, maybe the DID fix the ohio, indiana, florida, colorodo, iowa, pennsylvania and florida election outcomes… the means the black guy didnt really win!!!! YAY THE BLACK GUY ISN’T THE REAL PRESIDENT THE COUNTRY ISN’T CHANGING AFTER ALL!!!!.
    it’s obvious. I will not be one bit surprised if Fox had a hand in sending those “film makers” to begin with.

    all that said, it was a big mistake on ACORN’s part. the question about “16 very young girls from elsalvador that should be kept off the books”…the Acorn rep.. as far as they knew… were offering advice on underage sex trafficking. I dont know what kind of attorney client priviledge was in effect, but given my take on the Bush administration, if the conversation is illegal enough, that sort of thing needs to be waived. all told ACORN fucked up, but i think the right will over play their hand… again. and i cant wait.

  7. Progressive Mom says:

    Interesting side note that isn’t get much press: the conservative stingers tried Philadelphia (and San Diego and several other) ACORN offices and got thrown out. In Philly, the police were called on the stingers, whom the ACORN staff thought really were pimp and prostitute, but no charges were filed.

    Now, all those ACORN employees who did the right thing will be out of work and the people that they helped abandoned.

    But, hey, as long as the Republicans get what they want in a spirit of bipartisonship, life is beautiful, right?


  8. Well, I hope all groups that help the poor and other groups that conservatives don’t like are aware that these tactics are being used. It’s also been used against Planned Parenthood, BTW.

  9. Scott P says:

    To me, at least, it’s pretty obvious why conservatives have this hate for ACORN. It’s the same reason they don’t like social safetynet programs, and one of the misguided reasons they are against health care reform. Do I have to say it? ACORN helps primarily poor and/or brown people.

  10. For those who may have missed last nights’ DELCOG-DE PRESS ASSN event, Michael Greenberger laid out very clearly how tax payer money was ripped off in the bailout to go to pay off the big banks’ hedging on a market collapse.

    The billions got sucked out of AIG’s backdoor to pay off premium guarantees that AIG’s mortgage holdings would fail. The credit default product is a hedge that your team will lose. So, ensuring that the market fails rewards these bets….as in subprime no doc loans ensure that the mortgages will ultimately go under. I thank DELCOG et al for helping to clear that up in my head! Wall Street is gambling on loss. On Americans losing their homes and then…..then they got Bush and Obama to pay them their gambling chip WITH citizen’s money…citizen’s credit.

    So, corporates hate that the health care insurance reform fight has organized, knowledgable activists like ACORN in the lead, they are also leading foreclosure relief and are completely in the way of the whores of Wall Street and their free-wheeling, Congressionally approved bulldozing of civilization itself.

    That Congress (AND EACH OF THE DELAWARE THREE) would immediately vote to strip ACORN of federal dollars before all the facts are in….tells me that Congress is totally bought in to corporate interests.

    This vote was their Terri Schiavo moment.

    (The latest DEPOL kookaide: http://www.delawarepolitics.net/sotomayor-ruffles-corporate-feathers/ )

  11. RICO says:

    is this over the line? I mean it is important to respect the office.


  12. A. price says:

    actually, that is kinda funny lookin.

  13. I just would like to thank everyone for your kind words of encouragement, prayers, and support. ACORN will continue to organize in low and moderate-income communities; we will continue to fight for social and economic justice. As the saying goes, “What doesn’t kill you can only make you stronger”

    Keep us in your prayers. And we (ACORN) will keep fighting for the underprivileged.

  14. kinicky says:

    I say we just round them up……

  15. Von Cracker says:

    why don’t we round folks like this up instead? But hey, I understand, low-level, meagerly-paid black operatives are much more dangerous…

    “WASHINGTON — The Justice Department is investigating whether a former secretary of the interior, Gale A. Norton, violated the law by granting valuable leases to Royal Dutch Shell around the time she was considering going to work for the company after she left office, officials said Thursday.”

    from Eschaton

  16. kinicky says:

    I’d rather have her Rolodex!! But….any time I need a hit of crack, I can use the ACORN call sheet.

  17. Heh Heh says:

    Kinicky — You’re a crackhead? Now we understand….

  18. If a conservative organization were so readily prepared to give advice facilitating child prostitution of underage girls imported into this country for that purpose, would you be so blasé about the whole thing?

    And if such a sting were done by liberal free-lance journalists against a conservative group, would you remain silent while the local prosecutor threatened to to prosecute those journalists but not the individuals promoting sex-slavery?

    Where are your liberal values?

  19. RWR why are you conflating the national organization and what their positions are with a few bad employees.

    You are full of shit.

    Why is the FOX / BECK / Nannity and Rush hatchet job ignoring the many ACORN offices whose employees refused, ignored and / or called the police on these trickster mockumentary journalist actors? HUH?

    How dare you call this ACORN’s postition. What a load.

  20. Nancy — how many offices/employees would it take for you to condemn the whole if it were a conservative organization? For the MSM to do so?

    And when you get the same thing happening in offices around the country (sort of like the fraud in ACORN’s voter registration programs, too), is that not indicative of a larger culture within the organization?

  21. cassandra_m says:

    Well so far they’ve filmed how many people doing the wrong thing out of, what, 1200 people nationwide?

    It is still fewer people than got caught up in the DeLay and Abramoff business and I would expect that you would want us to know that just because a whole lot of repubs got caught up in that not to see all repubs as being money grubbing or corrupt.

    And how many offices did this filmmaker go to where he and his handmaiden were shown the door? How many where the cops got called?

    Halliburton loses more Fed money in a day than ACORN gets in a year, yet this is where the theater is. Wonder where the repub effort to defund Halliburton is? Or KBR? Or any of the mercenary contractors?

    Right — and there won’t be any. Because it is OK to have some firms rip off the taxpayers in full view, but the repub war on poor people — must go on.

    And this is the definitive take, I think, of this whole business.

  22. So, cassie, how many offices were there where the cops were called? Should be easy enough to document, shouldn’t it? After all, there would be police reports and everything — possibly even arrest records from where these two were arrested.

  23. RICO says:

    N.Y. Governor Orders Review of ACORN Contracts

    Fox News ^ | 09/18/2009 |
    New York Gov. David Paterson ordered state agencies Friday to put a 30-day hold on contracts with the community organizing group ACORN and its affiliate, New York Agency for Community Affairs. In a memo, the Budget Division cited Paterson’s “continued efforts to ensure fiscal accountability and integrity,” directing the agencies to report “any potential issues.” In Washington, the House and Senate separately voted this week to deny all federal funds for ACORN in a GOP-led strike against the liberal-leaning group, which was accused last year of submitting some false voter registration forms in a massive voter-registration drive.

    when did New York elect a rethug governor?

  24. RICO says:

    (Chicago) Former ACORN Members Here Saw Scandal Coming

    …Denise Dixon was once president of ACORN Illinois, and Madeline Talbott was a top organizer. But two years ago, in a move that now looks prophetic, they and other Chicago activists quit ACORN.

    “We just felt things were not right at the top. There were different people in charge then,” Talbott said.

    “After I left and others left, we had heard that steps were being taken to get rid of the bad apples in the barrel and to straighten it out,” she added. “I still believe that’s true. But it’s very clear they didn’t get all the bad apples yet.”

    Talbott and Dixon complained that ACORN’s then-national leader, Wade Rathke, put his brother in charge of finances, was concealing key money moves and was, in short, a scandal waiting to explode.

    Still, they’re stunned by video from a recent conservative group’s sting….

  25. mike x says:

    Instead of being a closeted gay Republican RICO should be an openly gay Republican like me. There will be less acting out in the form of cut and paste drive by spamings and more blow jobs and ass fucking.

    Lots and lots more.

  26. Odd silence from cassie after I knocked down her strawman.

  27. Progressive Mom says:

    Actually, RWR, the cops were called in Philly but did nothing, because no crime is committed when you just talk about it. There is a call report, but nothing else. The Philly police department talked to the media about it.

    Now, how about answering Cassie’s question about Halliburton?

    Since you’re so concerned about getting quick replies, and strawmen, and all.

  28. Using the logic put forth by you folks here, any wrongdoing by employees of Halliburton is something isolated and not reflective of the company, which has a vastly larger number of employees than ACORN could ever dream of — not to mention a vastly smaller number of employees under indictment for work-related misconduct.

  29. Progressive Mom says:

    Actually, the wrong-doing I am referring to IS corporate by Halliburton: providing unsafe drinking water for troops, for example, is not the action of one employee. And…

    overcharged or presented questionable bills for close on $1.5 billion, almost four times the previous amount disclosed.
    * lost 12 giant pre-fabricated bases worth over $75 million destined for the troops. The bases could have housed as many as 6,600 soldiers.
    * billed $152,000 to provide a movie library for 2,500 soldiers
    * billed inconsistently across the board. Video cassette players, for example, were said to cost $300.00 in some instances, and $1000 in others. Likewise, the company charged $2.31 for towels on one occasion and $5 for the same units on another.

    Not exactly “wrongdoing by employees”. Unless the entire organization only hires felons.

  30. Funny — sounds exactly like the argument that we on the right make about ACORN.

  31. Von Cracker says:

    no it doesn’t…and you make assessments for a living? or do you just rely on the rote method with your students.

  32. Progressive Mom says:

    RWR — explain how? I’ve given you two posts with facts. You’ve given me rhetoric.

    Oh, wait, …. you’re not really discussing this. You’re just throwing out words. Like bait. I thought we were grown-ups, but this is a school-yard discussion. You’re doing your version of “it’s because I SAID SO”.

    Got it.

  33. Actually, PM, it is because I don’t take you seriously.

  34. pandora says:

    Still no counter argument to PM’s facts, I see. Just the typical childish name calling.

  35. Progressive Mom says:

    When you have no argument, resort to name-calling.

    Just like a Republican.

  36. PM,

    Facts have a well-known liberal bias.

    This ACORN thing is just more of Republicans trying to distract everyone from the real villains while they bash poor people. I don’t hear Republicans talking about the billions of dollars Blackwater and Halliburton have taken from U.S. taxpayers and have done shoddy and dangerous work that has killed American soldiers.

  37. John Young says:

    UI, Agree. Blackwater and Haliburton are horrible entities. So is ACORN.

  38. cassandra_m says:

    Not to mention reigning in the bankers and lobbyists who continue to put taxpayer funds at huge risks.

    But the dumb bastard RWR thinks that he actually made some kind of point when he tired calling out a contributor here who had more to do on Saturday night than sit in front of a computer. Then again, the Cialis Whisperer doesn’t know the difference between an argument from logic vs an argument from ad hominem — the latter, of course, is his specialty.

    Which would be why we don’t take this fool seriously at all. And neither, apparently, does anyone at his own blog.

  39. xstryker says:

    When you have no argument, resort to name-calling.

    Just like a Republican.

    Very true. It’s a clear indication of mental impotence.

  40. RICO says:

    RWR stop calling names like:

    You are full of shit.
    dumb bastard
    the Cialis Whisperer
    mental impotence

    oh wait, that wasn’t you… never mind.

  41. xstryker says:

    Hey, he ran out of arguments and decided to throw insults. So he got fucking roasted.

  42. RICO says:

    More right wing over-reaction!!

    Obama favors investigation of community group ACORN after hidden-camera videos

    Baltimore Sun ^ | 9-20-09 | AP
    WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama says there should be an investigation into the hidden-camera video involving employees at the activist group ACORN and a couple posing as a prostitute and her pimp. The two ACORN workers are seen apparently advising the couple to lie about her profession and launder her earnings to get housing aid.

  43. xstryker says:

    Ah, but no one said there shouldn’t be an investigation. Strawman.

  44. mike w. says:

    “Still no counter argument to PM’s facts, I see. Just the typical childish name calling.”

    Oh C’mon, that’s what you and your fellow contributors here at DL do all the time.

  45. There are two great posts over on Salon.com In Defense of ACORN and a post by Greenwald. Sure, investigate the problems but put it into perspective people.

    Congress attached their No $$ For You Vote to a student aide vote and it could well be stripped away before it is finally set forth into law.

  46. Progressive Mom says:

    Cassandra — You missed nothing by not visiting this thread. As you can see, it was just overtaken by some boys peeing on themselves. They appear to have left to find another place to piddle, but I believe they’ll be back.

    And I am shocked to think that RWR has a blog. How ever does he get the paste and finger paint off the keyboard when he’s done?

  47. Progressive Mom says:

    RICO — I asked the question. I provided the facts. I called RWR no names, except, at the end, a Republican.

    He ended the discussion with an ad hominem attack, and hasn’t returned. What a man.

    And one other poster (whose post seems to have been “disappeared” in the past 10 hours) came up with some lame pseudo-sexual insult for me. Again, like a good, probably fundamentalist Christian, Republican.

    I’m waiting for an adult discussion.

    “oh wait….never mind.”

  48. Von Cracker says:

    shorter troll:

    i’m right; you’re wrong. the sky is polka dot and you smell like doody.

    8 year-olds, Dude, 8 year-olds.

  49. Art Downs says:

    ACORN is a racket run by an activist family. One member already got caught embezzling funds. The seem to be strongly linked to the SEIU, a corrupt union with a membership too stupid to know that they are getting screwed.

    Did anyone smell any ACORN activity in the special election last week? How many paid workers were there?

  50. mike x says:

    ..plus they are black.

  51. The only difference between ACORN and the right-wing military-industrial fascists is that ACORN doesn’t have the high-priced lawyers or deep political connections to get them out of the bullshit they create. They’re going to have to have the charges — rightfully — laid against them and defend them. Halliburton, on the other hand, fucks us all over and just collects another multi-million dollar contract.

  52. anonone says:

    Hey Mike, do a few bad teachers make ALL teachers and their schools bad? Do you close down a hospital because one of the nurses was caught selling drugs?

    And, please, do tell us what specifically “the right-wing military-industrial fascists” and ACORN actually DO have in common? Or are you just showing us what you and Bozo the Clown have in common (again)?

  53. Mike is joining Tyler Nixon in the whack club these days. Your comment above is as laden with shit as any I’ve see lately. Your sequestered little world in mama’s shelter has kept you soft, Mike.

    Answer A1’s question or STFU y’seff.

    Only a total moran would compare ACORN with the right-wing military-industrial fascists.

  54. anonone says:

    Mike, that is brilliant and factual writing in support of your original thesis. Thanks for your careful and well-researched opinions. The add so much to the discussion. Next, I bet you’ll be telling us why Habitat For Humanity is exactly like Haliburton. Go Mike!

  55. mike w. says:

    “Hey Mike, do a few bad teachers make ALL teachers and their schools bad? Do you close down a hospital because one of the nurses was caught selling drugs?”

    Do you punish all 80+ million gun owners because a fraction of 1% of them commit crimes?

  56. mike w. says:

    “I’m waiting for an adult discussion”

    Considering you just attacked RWR in a comment where you complained about him doing it I highly doubt you’re capable of adult discussion.

  57. anonone says:

    Hey Mike the Gun-Nut, this isn’t a gun thread – don’t hijack it.

  58. rhubard says:

    Don’t hijack it? EVERY thread Mike W. joins turns into a gun thread.

  59. mike w. says:

    Just using Anonone’s logic against him. (though I hesitate to call anything A1 writes here “logic.”)

  60. Miscreant says:

    “Hey Mike, do a few bad teachers make ALL teachers and their schools bad? Do you close down a hospital because one of the nurses was caught selling drugs?”

    When there numerous bad/dealing teachers/nurses at the same school/hospital, it may be worthy of a good look.


    The Halliburton analogy was a stretch, but they’re not exactly a small grassroots organization:

    “Activist group ACORN started in 1970 to help poor people in Arkansas and by decade’s end went national, expanding into a multimillion-dollar conglomerate with a mission so far-flung that schools now bear its name, two radio stations are affiliates and a man its political arm endorsed is the president.”

  61. Progressive Mom says:

    “Comment by mike w. on 21 September 2009 at 9:26 am:

    “I’m waiting for an adult discussion”

    Considering you just attacked RWR in a comment where you complained about him doing it I highly doubt you’re capable of adult discussion.”

    Gosh, Mike, I am sorry. I called RWR a “man” and a “Republican”. And, possibly, an “adult.” Those were my attacks.

    Perhaps he’s a Democratic teenaged girl, and he felt attacked. My bad, but I was judging from his/her comments.

    Of course, it doesn’t matter, because he/she doesn’t take me seriously, so he/she doesn’t particularly care.

    But you knew all that — you were just trying to get your shot in. Pun intended, since I read the gun thread.

    Can I call you a man and a Republican, or is that too much insulting for you? … insults abound here in this post….. whew!

  62. A. price says:

    why are the sane ones here still arguing? the Extremists on the right wing will NEVER concede that ACORN is NOT a socialist nazi muslim pro gay cult bent on making Obama a worshiped god and forcing their kids to have interracial gay sex. it is what they believe at their core. Surly as we believe that in America, people should have access to care if they get sick, THESE people believe the same…. only added is …”if they deserve it”.
    The hateful people who stand up and say “i work hard so my family can have health care.. other people should work hard too”

    that sums it up. they DONT love their neighbor as their alleged religious teaching might suggest they should. They are afraid of different, and in a very primal reaction hate it. They hate the different looking president, some will never admit WHY, but they hate him. They hatefully call him a “muslim” (as if it is a bad thing) and “socialist” as if it were a bad thing…… Ive said it before and i’ll say it again
    are you listening right wing extremists? i WISH obama was a socialist!

    They will say whatever they can think of to convince themselves and their ilk that it isnt really happening… He isnt the REAL president, no one really MEANT to vote for him, some underfunded agency who 99% of the time helps the homeless find a roof perpetrated election fraud on a national scale and snuck him in so he could advance a pro mulsim, pro hitler, pro gay agenda….
    its over…. you LOST the right wing had their chance to run things…. by stealing an election no less, they even WON a few elections….. but it is over now. they have demonstrated they are totally incapable of running the country unless it is only white people in the south who love jesus and hate everyone else.

  63. mike w. says:

    WOW! Some big time crazy there A. Price.

    STILL butthurt over Gore losing huh? That’s just sad.

  64. A. price says:

    and my point is proven. speak truth to them and they project.
    to be honest mike, i think if al gore had won, or even kerry for that matter, Obama would never have even run. Bush and your R-tards (like that) made the situation SO BAD, people were finally willing to take the big step needed. dont pretend for an INSTANT, because I, and every level headed person on earth has photographic proof… that the right wing is NOT about fear. Obama and the left have been called nazis, socialists (2 mutually exclusive groups). Obama has been called a mulsim (in a bad way) pictures of african witch doctors and monkeys in doctor outfits….. it is all about hate and racism and if you all would stop being so selfish hateful, you would see that this is bigger than your political party. your nation is in crisis. But, people who dont look or think like you are the ones getting hurt so fuck em right?

    again, you lost this time…. take a big ol bite out of your shit sandwich

  65. mike w. says:

    if you all would stop being so selfish hateful, you would see that this is bigger than your political party. your nation is in crisis.

    So people who fundamentally disagree with Obama’s policies and his approach to governing should just “stop being so selfish,” shut the hell up and just roll over and let he and the liberals in Congress do whatever they want?

    Not a chance in hell.

    As far as “A nation in crisis”, have you considered that maybe Obama’s policies are part of the PROBLEM not the solution. Oh, and I love how you conveniently ignore that many of Obama’s policies are no different than Bush. As much as I dislike Obama there were some things I was hopeful he’d change from the Bush years and he has not done so.

  66. rhubard says:


    Please take your homosexual fears somewhere else. Is this why you like the guns? To protect your back?

  67. cassandra_m says:

    And here is Mis not paying attention AGAIN:
    The Halliburton analogy was a stretch, but they’re not exactly a small grassroots organization

    The Halliburton comparison was NOT to compare types of organizations — but a comparison of the level of wrongdoing and of the amounts of money involved . Halliburton has been misusing way more Fed funds than ACORN would ever get its hands on and this Congress (and prior Congress’) did not see fit to condemn them, to recind their contracts, to preclude them from getting more contracts (or even to just give them additional oversight), or to get their high dudgeon on lickty split. Even though the Halliburton grievances represent multiple orders of magnitude anything that ACORN has been accused of as well as multiple known risks to soldiers.

    But apparently the ACORN lesson is 1) they didn’t go big enough and 2) their constituencies were far too black and far too brown.

  68. A. price says:

    when i say selfish i am talking about the people who actually say “I DONT WANT MY TAXES PAYING FOR SOMEONE ELSES HEATH CARE!!!!” that, to me is selfish. they would rather their neighbor get laid off, be dropped by their evil insurance company, get sick, go bankrupt and DIE, than pay a little extra…. MAYBE and ensure the nation is healthy and productive.. you conserva-istas always shout about how wonderful america is and how our nation is the best in the world, but rarely do you ever want to work to improve it more.

  69. anonone says:

    In writing “Next, I bet you’ll be telling us why Habitat For Humanity is exactly like Haliburton,” I was trying to show the ridiculousness of Mike M. comparing “ACORN and the right-wing military-industrial fascists.”

    That’s all.

  70. mike w. says:

    A. Price – Not everyone believes that increasing the scope, size and power of government = “improving America.”

  71. Geezer says:

    “Not everyone believes that increasing the scope, size and power of government = “improving America.”

    The mystery is why some people think that, regardless of the situation, either increasing or decreasing the size of government is automatically good OR bad. In other words, Mike, your position — that more government is NEVER the answer — is no more responsible than that of someone who thinks increasing goverment is ALWAYS the answer.

  72. A. price says:

    those people are called insurance executives and they are “butthurting” us all. everyone they deny someone care, a paying customer….. they make money… even if that person dies. dont TELL me that makes this country great…. America. where any kid can grow up to decide who lives and dies based on a bottom line. you guys put up a straw man of care rationing? it is happening already and you are all so blinded by your Glenns and Rushes who make you hate everything obama that you would rather Americans continue to suffer and die just so the “bad man” cant do, whatever you’re afraid he is gonna do.