Donning my skeptical hat
It was pretty easy to pick apart a Bush loyalist especially when they would put out vague statements and watch the media lap them up. Well, here we have an Obama guy doing the same thing, and, well, the same thing happens.
Responding to criticism from former Vice President Cheney that President Obama is making the nation more vulnerable to terrorism, the president’s National Security Adviser, Gen. Jim Jones (Ret.), told ABC News in an exclusive interview that actually the reverse is true: President Obama’s greater success with international relations has meant more terrorists put out of commission.
First warning goes off, When I hear “exclusive”. Meaning, they called ABC and said they will give them an exclusive. Then low and behold, the reverse is true and O is safer and more effective than W. Shocking.
“This type of radical fundamentalism or terrorism is a threat not only to the United States but to the global community,” Jones said. “The world is coming together on this matter now that President Obama has taken the leadership on it and is approaching it in a slightly different way – actually a radically different way – to discuss things with other rulers to enhance the working relationships with law enforcement agencies – both national and international.”
Key word that jump out “leadership”,”radically”, “different”. Look, O talks with people. W didn’t. Good vs. Bad.
Jones said that “we are seeing results that indicate more captures, more deaths of radical leaders and a kind of a global coming-together by the fact that this is a threat to not only the United States but to the world at-large and the world is moving toward doing something about it.”
The former Marine General didn’t provide any specific numbers to back up his claim, but he said “there is an increasing trend and I think we seen that in different parts of the world over the last few months for sure.” He added that he was not “making a tally sheet saying we are killing more people, capturing more people than they did — that is not the issue.”
Another siren is sounding. A factless statistic. And he backs up his statistic by saying what? That he isn’t tracking the numbers? WTF?
But the numbers are going up, he said. “The numbers of high value targets that we are successfully reaching out to or identifying through good intelligence”
Ok, so let me get this straight? The numbers you aren’t tracking or tallying are going up? And you know this because….
from both the CIA and intelligence agencies from US allies has made the difference, he said. “We have better human intelligence; we know where the terrorists are moving. Because of the dialogue and the tone of the dialogue between us and our friends and allies…
the trend line against terrorism is positive, and that’s what we want. If we have a positive trend line we have a safer country.”
Ok, so again, no data, no score card, no tallying, but we are trending up?
Jones made his comments the day after Mr. Cheney said he has “serious doubts” about the extent to which President Obama “understands and is prepared to do what needs to be done to defend the nation.” Cheney assailed the decision by Attorney General Eric Holder to begin a preliminary investigation into whether any CIA officers went beyond what they were told was legally permissible in interrogating detainees.
Ahhhhhh, there it is. After Cheney made his comment. Now we know what this “exclusive” meeting was all about.
Later on in the post we get this nug
“We are doing everything to make this country safe every single day,” Jones asserted.
GRRRRRRRRR, we are tough and kill people too! Safe, strong, leadership! O! Hoorah!
“We’re a nation of values,” he told ABC News. “I was on active duty when these techniques were used. I was surprised and disappointed.” The United States, he said, isn’t “known as a country that tortures people.”
Uh, you were on active duty when these things occurred and didn’t do shit about it? HELLLOOOOOOOOOO!
We are a nation of values but we just don’t prosecute or hold people accountable when they go against our “values” (wink, wink)
Politics, aint it grand?
Every one-on-one interview is “exclusive,” because no other reporters were there to hear it. It’s a content-free hype word. It would be hyped as exclusive even if ABC made the initial phone call to set it up.
By the way, I’d be thrilled the next time — that is, the first time — a network quoting Cheney adds the sentence “he didn’t offer any evidence to back up his claim.”
So let me get this straight — you prefer a situation in which Dick Cheney spouts his lies, and the Obama administration makes no response. Got it. Carry on.
didn’t the O admin just respond with lies and half truths?
Vague statements and vapid posturing? Yes. Lies and half-truths? I don’t know that for sure, and neither do you.
We already know that the Obama administration is made up of craven political opportunists. I’ll wait until there’s more evidence to claim those are “lies.”
“we are seeing results that indicate more captures, more deaths of radical leaders
“making a tally sheet saying we are killing more people, capturing more people than they did — that is not the issue.”
Lies and half-truths? I don’t know that for sure, and neither do you.
The above isn’t a half truth or a lie?
“I was on active duty when these techniques were used. I was surprised and disappointed.”
this doesn’t tell you all you need to know about the honor this guy has?
please Geezer. We would be all over Bush for this same shit. This guy didn’t just appear when O came into office. They all play the same game and we are just stupid enough to believe they are on “our” side.
Donviti, I’m reading between the lines here, but are you advocating that the military should not follow orders from the Commander in Chief, if they disagree with them?
that is assuming Jones was even in a position to do anything. he probably wasn’t. he was probably also told by Darth Cheney and Co that the methods he didn’t like were legal and if he loved his country and his job, he better shut up and smile.
I think Obama has some shitty P.R people working for him. people like Gibbs and Jones. These guys went to the Ari Felcher (yes i know) school of talking to the public. every time the president explains something he uses facts, numbers and details… and what do people do? attack him for being to complicated.
this is a nation of retards. most people have to be spoken to like children. Fixed news spoke to their idiotic mob like children about health care, and it has been defeated.
I can’t tell i fyou are asking a serious question or not.
Aren’t they still searching for Nazis? That defense only get’s you so far Nemski.
So you are comparing our military to Nazi’s — the political gov’t of Germany in the 30s and 40s. Priceless.
No, I’m comparing the bullshit “i was following orders” defense you served up.
No, you were the one questioning what he did before, not me. I’m wondering what you would have had him do? I made no mention of the Nazis as well.
Are system of gov’t has its foundation that the military obeys the orders of the civilian gov’t. Sounds like you want something different.
oh, ok, no one quits or stands up for what is right. Everyone just follows orders, even illegal ones. What was I thinking.
Let me give you a hypothetical:
“Go do this”
“That’s illegal”
“Go do it anyway”
A. Ok
B. No, it’s illegal
Sometimes people stay at a job because they feel they can do more good — create change — on the inside than on the outside.
DV, your line of reasoning is that the Marine Commandant (which was what Jones was) should quit the military instead of making sure the marines under his command do the right thing.
Nixon quit didn’t he
and regardless of that, I’m not getting into some stupid David Anderson type arguement when the post is about some douche bag giving an “exclusive” to ABC news, has no numbers to back up his rhetoric, says he has no numbers, but then uses vague statistical statements to prove the numbers he says he doesn’t have. Then he goes on to preach about torture, yet let it happen under his watch.
your post is about two things . . . re-read it . . . it’s about statistics and honor . . . and your idea that he let torture happen on his watch is, at best, guess work.
regarding lack of statistics, i would only say this, in any work environment, people have an idea of whether things are improving or degrading without the use of reporting, scorecards, etc.
I’m sorry nemski if you don’t like me applying the same litmus test to the Big O as I did to the Big W.
My post is about a few things.
1. it isn’t an “exclusive”. It is the administration using the media as a propaganda tool.
2. It is the media allowing themselves to be whored out
3. It is the administration trying to not use numbers, but then quantify their arguement.
4. It is about a Marine General trying to act like he wasn’t part of the problem when bush is around and is now suddenly disgusted by what happened right under his nose. The marines guard the prisons Nemski
On point 1. Geezer is right that an exclusive interview just means that it wasn’t a group interview. For example, our interview with the Governor at Panera wasn’t exclusive (unless you’re from Sussex, apparently). Our interview with Markell during the campaign, was exclusive.
My answer to question #1, makes your point #2 invalid.
I have to look into #3.
And #4 is only a valid criticism if the Marine General in question was responsible for the guards that you are complaining about. In fact, the people doing the torture were CIA, as stated in your post. If the General was responsible for forward operations, he wasn’t going to have any impact on the guarding of Abu Ghraib.
Further, his point about being active duty at the time could very well have meant that the techniques made his soldiers less safe as they went into the field.
And let me say that you may apply litmus tests all you want, but they don’t give you accurate results if you have no idea what you are testing.
It would be nice to be able to see this interview in its entirety too.
There is no link to it.
And upon further review, the Army guarded Abu Ghraib.
And as NATO commander, I’m not sure that he had any responsibility for Iraq, but Afghanistan is a NATO operation. You can bitch about torture there if you would like.
Points 1 & 2 just show naïveté and nothing more.
Point 3 I would agree with, but my trust in Obama is far greater than my trust in Bush.
Point 4 is just plain flat out wrong.
I get it, so only Bush flacks would use the media to blunt critics with empty rhetoric and Positive spin.
What was I thinking. I guess next time I criticize I will make sure I put my blinders on.
I’m being Naive? I’m being Naive? I mean, the audacity of that statement is mind numbing. You somehow think that all of a sudden, Obama gets in office and the tactics are going to change and they aren’t going to use their bully pulpit to give “exclusive” interviews?
The leaps one has to make to assume that the Dems aren’t going to use the media as a tool to spread their message and craft it they way they want it is astounding.
The leaps one has to make to assume that the Dems aren’t going to use the media as a tool to spread their message and craft it they way they want it is astounding.
Never said that. You’re the one who appears to be living in a fantasy world where they don’t play politics inside the Beltway.
DV
I don’t really expect that my opinion matters to you very much, but this is your second superlative piece of blogging in the past two weeks.
And I made a point to say so
http://delawarelibertarian.blogspot.com/2009/09/donviti-gets-it-absolutely-right.html
it matters more than protack’s does
Nemski,
I never said they didn’t. You are the one saying you trust Obama more than Bush. Yet, he hasn’t done a damn thing different regarding “national security”. So I guess, you looked into his soul and just know.
Steve Newton: Superlative why? Because he cheered against his own side? This wouldn’t have merited any notice had it happened on a conservative site, would it? So is your standard simply a willingness to criticize one’s own side? That would be quite convenient for you, since the Libertarian side has never had any power and most likely never will, therefore sparing you the trouble of ever having to voice criticism of one of your own. Meaning that, by your own standard, you will never engage in any superlative blogging.
Yeah, I looked into his soul, that’s right.
“Nixon quit didn’t he”
To avoid the shame of impeachment, yes.
For a guy with a lot of masculinity issues, you sure set ridiculous standards for other people to live up to.
Geezer,
There are as many flavors of Libertarianism as there are Libertarians, so if you call yourself a Libertarian then, ipso facto, all your ideas are Libertarian ideas.
That, in and of itself, is very Libertarian.
Geezer
The fact that you were apparently scarred for life by misspelling the word “libertarian” on a test in elementary school explains the fact that you are–what’s the technical term?–batshit nuts on the subject.
That’s OK; just try to remember to take your cholinesterase inhibitors tonight.
OK, I won’t be so snarky, since it gets your libertarian panties in a libertarian bunch.
My point is that you act as if you discovered anti-matter just because you’ve noticed that both major political parties are corrupt and full of shit. Congratulations. It still doesn’t excuse substituting a political philosophy for independent thought.
Now that I think of it, howzabout you cite some evidence that I am “batshit crazy” on the subject of libertarianism?
It is impossible to be completely honest from the religious pulpit or the political podium. Propaganda is part of the process.
Huxley wrote brilliantly on the subject in Brave New World Revisited. Remember, Revisited. I believe it was Chapter 6., The Art of Selling.
Damn DV, you actually wrote a well-reasoned post critical of Obama. The 2nd one in recent history in fact. Bravo. Didn’t know you had it in you.
If DV spray-painted “Obama Sucks” on the wall you’d think it was well-reasoned. Or possibly superlative.
DV had a good insight about the language Jones used, but I’m nor ready to throw Obama under the bus yet.
DV,
I’m sure you’ll be all over the conservative blogs as a “See, even his own supporters are turning against him, it’s a sign of the third reich”… And they’ll start calling you the founder of the O Valkyrie plot. It’s good to see that you’re looking at it from an open mind.
I see what you mean and having served before, I see what you think however, you and I both know that what Jones really wanted to say was that “yea, I knew it was going on but if I did say something, it would’ve cost me my career and I would’ve ended up being the fall guy for it”…
Yes, there is a line that each soldier, sailor, airman does not cross, it’s identified in the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) as “Conduct Unbecoming…” however, we all know that this doesn’t necessarily hold water when the TOP of the TOP tiers hold your future at stake.
No one’s perfect, He’s been in office for a little over 8 months now and we’re expecting him to fix everything that took Cheney and Bush 8 years to screw up. (Mind the fact that I placed Cheney first BTW) Let’s also not forget the fact that “National Security” has always been a touchy subject that draws a clear line between parties. It’s taken in my perspective a big brass set of you know what in order to just expose this for what it is and you have to look at that from the perspective as a Moral centerpoint. There was really no reason to expose this except for the fact that we need to look at what we’ve done and what we need to do to fix it.
What torture does to this country is tarnish what it stands for, what WE (Democrats, Republicans etc.) stands for as a country. It smells a lot like the Japanese internment camps of WWII, the end justifying the means and for that we become a weaker nation… As Reagan said, it was a failure of leadership”…
Now I know there is bound to be somebody from the right that will argue, who cares about who we torture, since they aren’t citizens of the U.S., the value of human life doesn’t stand in balance on whether or not someone is an American.
Obama has turned against his supporters.
“Obama has turned against his supporters.”
That is probably the most idiotic thing that’s been said here to date…