Credit Where Credit Is Not Due
Steve Newton of Delaware Libertarian has written two recent posts (more on his latest posts at the bottom) on the Glenn Beck organization We Surround Them. In the first post Steve appears far more concerned with those who take Beck and Norris seriously, claiming that it’s those (read:us) attempting “to stereotype everybody who disagrees with them is a danger to society.” And it’s this cherry-picking of what’s dangerous that bothers me. Why aren’t both dangerous? Why aren’t both a joke? It’s this break in consistency that keeps eating at me. Now, I suppose I could view Steve’s words as a backhanded compliment, as in he expects more from us than he expects from the likes of Beck and Norris. But after reading the post several times I keep reaching the same conclusion: We are wrong (and over-reacting) for being concerned and criticizing these groups.
We are also, according to the post, late to the game. There’s a reason for that, and it’s not that we just suddenly discovered these secession groups. It’s that while we’ve been quite aware, for years, of these groups, they’ve resided on the fringe of our minds – just like they resided on the fringe of society. What has brought them to the forefront of our minds is their sudden resurgence and growing voice. Hence, our concern.
The second post attempts to legitimize these groups by citing Civil Rights and Civil Liberty concerns. In my opinion, Steve is giving the new members of these groups too much credit, simply because if they weren’t part of these organizations during Bush’s Presidency then they lose the legitimacy argument. Let’s be honest, the sudden growth and popularity of these groups has nothing to do with Civil Rights or Liberties, and everything to do with President Obama.
And that’s the point, unless… you can honestly say that the same thing would be happening under a McCain/Palin Administration. And, if you agree with me that it wouldn’t (other than what has always existed on the fringe) then the legitimacy argument doesn’t hold water. Which isn’t to say that I’m dismissing Civil Rights and Civil Liberty concerns, nor am I dismissing Steve’s arguments in relation to them. I’m not. In fact, my bet is that Steve Newton has given more thought to these issues than 95% of the We Surround Them members. What I’m dismissing is this groups attempt to wrap themselves in the cloak of these rights and liberties and claim validation for an agenda whose sole purpose is ridding the country of Obama.
So, I won’t be giving them that validation, because they don’t deserve it. Why? Because I disagree with the last line line of the post. And those civil liberties concerns are very real. True statement, but not when applied to this group. My basic problem is that Steve does all the heavy lifting for a group little interested in anything more than yelling “Socialist” and overturning an election.
But, there was one line in Steve’s first post that I kept coming back to…
But like it says at the disclaimer entrance to most adult viewing sites on the Net: I can distinguish fantasy from reality, and so can 99.9% of my fellow Americans. The ones who can’t are a tiny minority of folks who are going to crack and kill some people every now and again (bluntly put), and discredit themselves and their ideology in the actions.
That’s a given, but it isn’t my point. My point is not that this minority of people ready to crack doesn’t exist, it’s that they do exist and are being directed to a target. And Glenn Beck proves me right again.
Update: As I worked on this post Steve posted again, this time on “It’s our police state now! Supporters of Ron Paul, Bob Barr, and Chuck Baldwin ID’ed as terrorists by Federally funded law enforcement organization.” If true, this deserves to be condemned. However, while I agree with Steve’s outrage (Yes, outrage) over this alleged* assault on Civil Liberties, I’m having trouble understanding why his outrage merits more credibility than mine. Seems to me both situations are outrageous and deserve swift condemnation.
*I use the term alleged because the report Steve cites (and it is pretty informative) is a history and description of the modern militia movement which includes a couple of lines that describes the typical political affiliations of these militia groups. I don’t see the call for special surveillance of anybody in that report. It is a briefing. I’m also not seeing where any of Steve’s claims have, as of yet, happened.
Update II: Honestly, I can’t type fast enough! Steve has just put up another post admitting that while his source (PrisonPlanet) is nuts his concerns are legitimate. He ends this post by saying… “So here’s my point: crackpots like Alec Jones in possession of real documents sometimes function as canaries in a coal mine or blind squirrels finding nuts. And if that causes us to look a bit closer at MIAC or DHS, and how they are subtly reshaping the contours of American life, I’m OK with that.”
I’m okay with that statement as well. It is, after all, what blogs do. But how is that any different than me looking a bit closer at crackpots like Beck and Norris who are signing up members to join their cell, organizing events, spewing talk of secession and the need to arm yourselves against the government and now offering up the shootings in Alabama to why people in his movement may take the same action?
Tags: Delaware Blogosphere
You have really lost it. Chuck Norris and Glen Beck have nothing to do with the secessionist movement. It is not to be said that the movement doesn’t have every right to exist, but I disagree with it and so do they.
Maybe you should listen to Beck one day and watch the show a couple of times, then your posts may actually match reality.
This is nothing different than the Moveon.org meet ups or any of thousands of other meetings in America. The way you talk about this is at best alarmist and at worst agitating people to violate the rights of others. It is like you want to create a boogie man to distract from the failure of the policies you advocate..
isn’t trying to break away from our country sort of unpatriotic?
well said David,
I’m sure you feel the same way about Obama and Acorn then
I do. Acorn has done a lot of good for people. I don’t agree with all of their policy prescriptions, but I applaud the work they have done in some sectors. They made a mistake with that voter registration misplay. If you get involved politically, you do take hits especially when something illegal is done in your name.
I don’t think Acorn is public enemy number 1. That is just me though.
As for the President, I have never questioned his patriotism. I believe he is doing what he believes is best for America.
I consider David’s words the highest form of praise.
Ummm…
Didn’t Norris comment that he would run for president of Texas when it seceded?
What I’m dismissing is this groups attempt to wrap themselves in the cloak of these rights and liberties and claim validation for an agenda whose sole purpose is ridding the country of Obama.
Republicans always take something unacceptable and try to wrap it inside something acceptable. It is their unique signature.
Union-busting: “secret ballot”
Voter disenfranchisement: “states rights”
Tax cuts for the rich: “tax cuts”
Mass eavesdropping: “wiretapping terrorists”
etc…
I certainly don’t think there is anything wrong with conservatives creating a new movement. More power too them! I think the scary part is all the talk of violence and secession. If they’re talking about how to get “more and better Republicans” then I think it is perfectly legit. Even if it’s a bunch of cranks talking about avoiding taxes, that’s also legit.
moveon.org isn’t populated by or affiliated with right wing militias… or any militias.
I realize not all pro gun anti obama republicans are a part of these terrorists cells, but all of these terrorist cells are right wing pro gun anti obama, and you CANT deny that.
If the repubs consider themselves a Taliban like insurgency, i would urge them to do what millions of good Muslims did in Iraq and rid their groups of the terrorist wings so they and the people the disagree with can have a calm peaceful productive conversation rather than arming up against each other.
And then there’s the latest Glenn Beck bit (link in post)
… He then questioned whether these people who feel silenced by “political correctness” are likely to “turn into that guy” when “pushed to the wall”:
BECK: Yada yada yada. And every time they do speak out, they’re shut down by political correctness. How do you not have those people turn into that guy?
O’REILLY: Well, look, nobody, even if they’re frustrated, is going to hurt another human being unless they’re mentally ill. I think.
BECK: I think pushed to the wall, you don’t think people get pushed to the wall?
O’REILLY: Nah, I don’t believe in this snap thing. I think that that kind of violence is inside you and it’s a personality disorder.
How bad is it when Bill O’Reilly is the voice of reason?
They do not talk of initiating violence. Some are concerned like my wife is that the economy could spiral to the point that people may riot in desperation. They want to prevent violence not cause it.
With any movement there is the wacky fringe. Norris and Beck are not extreme, they are just worried. There are extremists who have been waiting for a crisis to prove there vision of the future is the right one. I don’t defend their views, only their rights. The way to confront these people is with logic, reason, and properly directed emotion. It is not to shut them down.
thank you bill-o for taking the first step. he is ridding his party and his movement of the violence mongering terrorists
You’ re right–there are no right wing extremists populating move on; moveon.org is populated with left wing extremists as well as mainstream liberals. That is a good thing. The only way for the left and right to control the extremists is to mainstream their efforts. Give them a place to belong and direct them to something useful otherwise in bad times they become a problem.
worried about what exactly? they are entertainers. they’re job is to scare you and you wife into watching their shows and going to them for help, and giving them ratings so their sponsors can sell more soap. they are like Jim Cramer and CNBC. they are playing with fire, and like Palin and McCain harping on “fears” about Obama until whackos like Gail Quinell thought he was an Arab who would kill her, they are going to convince people that the only course of action is violent rebellion.
the blood will be on THEIR hands, and anyone who doesn’t call them out for the frauds they are
I don’t defend their views, only their rights. The way to confront these people is with logic, reason, and properly directed emotion.
So… where is your post confronting these people with logic, reason, etc.?
I commend David’s comments, number one.
The problem as I see it is this: Glenn beck is “mainstream” to the extent that Fox is mainstream media. (I think you’d agree.) So the scary thing is that what use to be called “lunatic fringe” now has a mainstream prime time network voice. Not so “fringy”. This is a problem for both sides. I don’t think Obermann’s Worst Person bit helps… but it is done tongue in cheek at least.
This blog, other the other hand, is not mainstream. (Sorry, it ain’t.) So I think to put the two on the same level would be silly. Like saying the problem is here not there. But in all honesty I don’t think Steve did that.
and Chuck Norris? are you fucking kidding me? Walker Texas ranger? HE is “concerned?” he is a redneck piece of white trash who stoped being able to sell Ab Busters so now he is selling fear
Fuck. Chuck. Norris
You obviously haven’t listened to or read either one of those gentlemen. It is Orwellian to read what you think they want.
DA are you giving even the SLIGHTEST bit of merit to Chuck Norris’s views? c’mon you disagree with me, but you aren’t an idiot.
and how hard is the economic crisis hurting Glen Beck? my guess… his ratings are higher, he has a heavily watched show…. Glen Beck is rolling in huge piles of money created by your hard times
just like Keith did really well off of Bush’s heckofajob btw. these people are entertainers. NOT politicians, they don’t care about you or me or America. they love their wallets
-sorry keith i’m a fan, but i know what you are.. there are MUCH WORSE people on the planet than Anne Coulter for making fun of YOU
Personally, I’m waiting to see what side Hasslehoff decides to take. I’m hoping to join a David Hasslehoff meetup for a live video feed of him and Kit telling me how to proceed.
Exactly why is MoveOn.org extreme, Dave?
Or is it a rote response?
Let’s see….MoveOn was created in response to the Clinton Impeachment farce, basically calling on Congress to censure and move on. I guess that’s extreme.
Noticing the rank hypocrisy of the GOP (at least over the past 10 years, it’s irrefutable), MoveOn focused on getting liberals elected. Again, very extreme.
Other extreme MoveOn activities include asking for more vigorous inspections of possible Iraqi WMDs, instead of military action. Reducing pollution, and campaign finance reform are other noted causes. (per Wiki)
All extremely extreme extremes, methinks.
Calling on liberals not to appear on FoxNews? Ha! That’s the last straw, fella! MAX_EXTREMITY!
General Betrayus? Go tell Eisenhower that no civilian should ever, and I mean EVAR, question a general.
If you want extreme liberalism, Dave, there are Socialist and Communist parties in this country…you should take it to them.
Not only rote, but wrong.
LG – Here’s a present for ya!
My guess lg, whatever Hasselhoff decides to do, it will because he got hooked on a feeling.
I knew he was an insurgent!
This thread has been hasselhoff’d!
We’re just marking time until Steve finishes typing his response.
So we can go to Happy Hour then!
Socialist Party in the US? what do they have 10 members. Communist Party ditto! That is so much freakin garbage. Lets talk about the real problem its the hate groups…the extreme, extreme…KKK, Nazi Party, John Birch Society, White Supremacists! They hate black people and are foaming at the mouth over a black president. That is a different issue than the economic issue.
I happen to believe that Ron Paul is the only true republican in the republican party. Yet the Missouri Police got the Alert to go after Ron Paul supporters! Thats a fact.
Anyone who talks about nationalizing the Federal reserve….potential terrorist. Anyone who stands for the “Consitution”, potential terrorist! Now please tell me why would a citizen who believes in the Consitution be a considered a domestic terrorist. Its an oxymoron!
This is about twisting the issues, confusing the ignorant, and fomenting rebellion. Blending all those extremists with people who actually are patriots! These extremists are talking about riots this summer…because they are going to start them, and try to convince the poor, angry blue collar worker to join THEM, cuz he has lost everything. No hope at all.
Someone has to take some leadership here and clearly hold those accountable, accountable! There should be no confusion as to who, what caused this financial destruction, bringing this country to our knees. Somebody has to go to jail….in fact lots of somebodies. It must be clear what the greedy did, and how they did it. Fix that system and tell the people HOW its going to be fixed in the future.
Yet the Missouri Police got the Alert to go after Ron Paul supporters! Thats a fact.
This is NOT a fact. The Alert (and you can read every word of it) provides a briefing of militia and other extreme right groups, history, motivations, typical associations, relationships to law enforcement and other data that tell law enforcement about these kinds of groups. This Alert isn’t much different that those that law enforcement would prepare and circulate about known or suspected gangs in the area.