Domestic Terror Question of the Day

Filed in National by on March 7, 2009

Where were all these chest thumping domestic terrorists wannabes who are so eager to revolt and break away from the United States when Bush was figuratively wiping his ass with the Constitution and wrecking the economy?

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Jason330 is a deep cover double agent working for the GOP. Don't tell anybody.

Comments (296)

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  1. anon says:

    They were all taking a break and high-fiving each other.

  2. anonone says:

    The Keyboard Kommandos strike again!

  3. jason330 says:

    And for the wingnuts too chickenshit to pick up arms and blow up federal building day care operations, there is always tax evasion framed as an act of patriotism.

    http://commonsensepoliticalthought.com/?p=5033

  4. Shoe Throwing Instructor says:

    Alowing your nation to collapse is a damn site better than having to admit your DOGMA is flawed. It`s a story that has been replayed over and over again in human history.

  5. liz says:

    How many of those wingnuts are “rich”, or just wannebees. They deny that George War Bush ran a dictatorship for 8 years. The 4% of the wealthiest made a killing on the middle class and workers. They have always despised social security, medicare or medicaid. They actually believe the 2% are more worthy of all that wealth than the workers who actually produced it. They dont want to share, they want to own, to enslave, to destroy the middle class.

    They want everyone working for $7.00 and hour, just above the minimum wage and they want them working two jobs. No benefits.

    Their supply side economics have destroyed the country, and they have NO new ideas. They remain the wingnuts and should simply be ignored…move on without them. Majority rules and all that good stuff.

  6. leo says:

    Dissent is patriotic!

  7. jason330 says:

    So dissent moron. Just stop talking about killing people and seceded from the Union.

  8. buzz says:

    “How many of those wingnuts are “rich”, or just wannebees.”
    Hopefully most or all. What with having jobs and working hard and all.

    “They deny that George War Bush ran a dictatorship for 8 years. ”
    Because he didnt? Idiot.

    “They dont want to share, they want to own, to enslave, to destroy the middle class.

    They want everyone working for $7.00 and hour, just above the minimum wage and they want them working two jobs. No benefits.”

    well, hell. Since your so good at reading minds, can you also predict lotto numbers?

    “Their supply side economics have destroyed the country, and they have NO new ideas. They remain the wingnuts and should simply be ignored…move on without them. Majority rules and all that good stuff.”
    So democracy good as long as your side wins? That pretty much it?

    “Where were all these chest thumping domestic terrorists wannabes who are so eager to revolt and break away from the United States when Bush was literally wiping his ass with the Constitution and wrecking the economy? ”

    1. working at jobs, being productive.
    2. Literally? I dont think that word means what you think it does.
    3. So dissent is no longer patriotic? So seriously, do you really think confiscting people’s wages will not have a negative effect? You actually think they will continue to produce just as much as before despite your eagerness to take their money to spend as YOU see fit?
    Truly unhinged. Textbook projection though.

  9. SDN says:

    Except he wasn’t doing any of those things, liar.

  10. Literati says:

    You literally don’t know what “literally” means. Are you a trained journalist? Do you have an editor?

  11. Inigo Montoya says:

    Moron

  12. jason330 says:

    Oh yeah. The real patriots have arrived. I have an idea boys. You all “go Galt” and see if anybody notices.

    In the meantime I’ll continue to call out Anti-American loser who want to talk tough about killing people and seceded from the Union.

  13. BJ says:

    Dissent is the highest form of patriotism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  14. TRO says:

    Hey, libs, we are just speaking truth to power like you said you were doing for all those years. Only now, you guys are really trying to shut us up – something we never did while you spouted off your nonsense.

    It’s a hell of a lot harder to be in power than out, ain’t it? LOL

  15. Ah, so orcinus doesn’t have a clue how widespread the phenomenon is, but he’s sure that Fox News is going to make it grow. Somehow.

    Is self-observation practiced anywhere on the left these days? Does anyone look at what they write and ask, gee, I wonder how this will look in five years/would look to a visitor from Mars?

  16. Terry Johnson says:

    “They deny that George War Bush ran a dictatorship for 8 years.”

    Grow up ! What kind of “dictatorship” allows free elections which the opposition wins with the support of the mainstream media ? You “cafe latte” liberals really are a joke…you live in your little alternative world of “fascist Republicans” but you have NO IDEA what a real dictatorship is like. Your constant bitching about “dictatorship-in -America” is an insult to the millions who live and die in real dictatorships.

  17. buddy larsen says:

    So, BDS wasn’t free?

  18. Dave Eaton says:

    “Majority rules and all that good stuff.”

    Except on gay marriage, I guess.

    Dissent is patriotic. Succession talk is nutty, but protesting government action is not the same thing.

    I haven’t seen any of these people advocate violence. But I did watch all sorts of international marxist organizations protest Bush.

    I don’t want to own anybody. That’s almost too retarded to respond to, but too egregious to leave alone.

    I’d much rather have a shitty job that I can quit, and live with the consequences, than the government controlling everything, and me have no recourse.

    Wingnut? Not me. I recognize that both parties want some of my freedoms, just different subsets. They both want my money, and don’t really believe that I own myself or the fruit of my labor. So I hate them all.

  19. Akatsukami says:

    Is self-observation practiced anywhere on the left these days?

    Of course it is; many liberals observe themselves in the mirror for hours at a time.

  20. jason330 says:

    “Going Galt” then Dave? I hope the country can survive with out your business acumen.

  21. SAA says:

    Well, I have to agree–you ARE a liberal. What are you, twelve?

    Put down the foil hat and step away from the keyboard.

    MOST Americans didn’t see things your way until the last two years of the Bush Administration (and I’m not convinced most of them really believed your side–I think most just found it more convenient to agree than to try to defend a President who wouldn’t defend himself). But hey, we “domestic terrorist wannabes” who object to our livelihoods (and those of our children and grandchildren) being stolen by you who believe government is the answer to all problems were sitting around and wondering when somebody was going to do something about the domestic terrorist wannabes at the NYT, LAT, CNN, CBS, Code Pink, and the rest of the anti-war extremists who felt it more important to truly endanger American lives than to appear to support a Republican President.

  22. jason330 says:

    Please note. the patriots are talking about a comment on this thread. Not the actual post which asks, “Where were all these chest thumping domestic terrorists wannabes who are so eager to revolt and break away from the United States when Bush was literally wiping his ass with the Constitution and wrecking the economy?

    I wonder why?

  23. GW says:

    “Bush was literally wiping his ass with the Constitution and wrecking the economy? ”

    I am stunned. I did not know that President Bush had the Constitution in his bathroom in the White House. Was it the REAL Constitution or was it a copy?

    Never ceases to amaze me how weak-minded blowhards write such inappropriate, stupid things when they cannot eloquently and justly let the facts speech for themselves.

    These people don’t have the sense to be humiliated. My momma would be embarrassed. So should yours.

  24. Joe the construction worker says:

    Bush ran a dictatorship? Wow, that’s quite an accomplishment, especially seeing as how the last two years he was in office the dems were in the majority. Now obviously we know that Bush wasn’t a dictator, but hatred runs deep with him and his ilk, emotion overtakes logic and he gets an opportunity to reveal his ignorance. Now that we have a segment of the population who pay 95% of the taxes expressing their displeasure at being asked to pay even more, this guy calls them domestic terrorist wannabes. I think projection pretty much nails it on the head. I think having two americas would be a fine idea. Nutcases like this guy can live in his world along with the rest of the people who suck off of the governments tit while those of us who actually work for a living, serve in the military, and run our own businesses can live in ours.

    PS…. “dissent is the highest form of patriotism” Isn’t that the phrase we kept hearing for 8 years as guys like this were burning american flags, writing plays about the assasination of Bush, and declaring the war being lost in Iraq (senator Reid, are you there?)

  25. Randy Rager says:

    You told us for eight years that dissent was the highest form of patriotism.

    Now it’s domestic terrorism?

    What are you, fucking high?

  26. jason330 says:

    Well bravo for picking up on one word in the post that is open to legitimate criticism.

    ::sarcastic clapping::

    Now tell me how you would describe what Bush did to the constitution.

  27. jason330 says:

    Dissent away idiot. Just don’t shoot. We are all Americans after all.

  28. paul says:

    domestic terrorist?

    what do you call a guy who wipes out 3 trillion dollars from 401ks in less than three months?

    A: Mr. President.

  29. rastajenk says:

    ‘Cause it’s too stupid for serious discussion?

  30. jason330 says:

    I rest my case.

  31. Independent says:

    jason330: “Buzz” answered the question directly, at 6:09 p.m. But in case you want a more literal answer, here it is:

    Anyone who is actually advocating domestic terrorism or armed revolution against the United States is seriously deranged and should be locked up. When Bush was president there were no doubt the same number of mentally unbalanced people as there are now, and its a shame they weren’t locked up then. Luckily, there are very few such people, and they certainly don’t speak for or represent the typical conservative or libertarian.

  32. Letalis Maximus, Esq. says:

    Domestic terrorists? In the Dem’s wet dreams. Slick was on the ropes and well on his way to being a one termer until Oklahoma City.

    Reichstag Fire, anyone?

  33. Ed Snack says:

    Jason, a word (not that I think you can comprehend the written word) of simple advice. When in a hole, STOP DIGGING. Note, when an extremely dark and dirty hole, it might pay to stop digging really quickly.

  34. jason330 says:

    Anyone who is actually advocating domestic terrorism or armed revolution against the United States is seriously deranged and should be locked up.

    Thank you.

  35. cassandra_m says:

    Oh Look! The Keyboard Kommandos have arrived!

    Complete with not addressing the content of the post, revisionist histories and their monopoly on stupid.

    Hang in there guys, the short bus will be here for you shortly.

  36. Independent says:

    You’re welcome?

    Well, bravo for picking up on the one sentence in my comment than any sane person would agree with.

    ::sarcastic clapping::

    Now if you tell me that you agree with the last sentence of my comment, I will congratulate you on your good judgment.

  37. john morrissey says:

    I read about 10 to 15 websites every day.I have yet to find a comment from the left that makes a serious attempt to discuss an issue.There doesn t seem to be anyone on the left who can build a premise with a foundation of facts and then draw a conclusion to support a position.You can tell when you have made a good point against the left, the arguements grow more violent and obscene, and if several of them jump you at once you have really hit a sore point.They are beneath contempt.Don t attempt to debate them,it only gives them more opportunity for really foul epithets.Ther comments about George Bush are right out of the Communist Party handbook.Demonize your enemies, smear them, insult them until they walk away and then you win is their pet tactic. Ignore them and force them to think and they are lost.

  38. zenpig says:

    “Now tell me how you would describe what Bush did to the constitution.”

    Don’t you actually have to state what he did to the Constitution outside of your fantasy bathroom sequence for it to be responded to? You do know you actually have to make a case before you rest it, dontcha? America, where any leftard can make a blog and think they are making rational arguments simply by virtue of their BDS.

  39. Independent says:

    Hey cassandra m,

    The short bus? Stupid?

    We were having a good (somewhat insult-free) discussion until you piped up with your name calling. Do you have anything to add besides playground insults?

  40. a. price says:

    wow. There are a whole new batch of wing nuts on this thread. Hey, terrorists, yes anyone who thinks violence against the U.S government is the answer is a terrorist…. you lost. your hate filled “me first” WASP supremacist way of life is coming to an end and there is nothing, NOTHING you can do about it.
    and ya know how we got it done? Democracy. We mobilized, gathered our strength, and voted. Not terrorism as you are advocating. Terrorism masked as freedom fighting… just like Osama.

  41. MarkJ says:

    Dear jason330,

    “I rest my case.”

    Nope, the only thing you’re “resting” is your pasty, white, ungrateful, ignorant, spoiled ass.

    Still got your job at Burger World? Better hold on to it, because, at the rate His Obamian Majesty is sending the economy into a death spiral, you’ll be damn glad you’re working the counter…much less fulfilling your dream of being assistant manager.

  42. FLTom says:

    And for the wingnuts too chickenshit to pick up arms and blow up federal building day care operations, there is always tax evasion framed as an act of patriotism.

    Here’s an excellent example of hubris, faulty analysis and hostile childishness. Obama has had nothing but trouble finding candidates to fill high appointments who haven’t evaded taxes. Indeed, he installed a crony to lead the IRS who himself evaded taxes. And still without a hint of irony the poster parades the supposed moral superiority of happy leftists who gladly “contribute” (in George Stephanopoulos’ immortal term) their own money to the common good, unlike the greedy, cretin wingnuts who dream incessantly about blowing up kids in daycare centers and stealing from Uncle Sam.

    This isn’t serious polemics. These are just hyper aggressive school yard taunts. The taunts are so aggressive, in fact, that I strongly doubt any daylight exists between the belligerent mindset of the poster and his doppelganger, the late, unlamented Timothy McVeigh.

  43. wilky says:

    ‘cept you “rested” it in the urinal. No worries, you can claim I did it and sue me for torture.

    Don’t forget to tell them I want to kill people. I don’t, thats what you keep sayin.

  44. cassandra_m says:

    Do you have anything to add besides playground insults?

    Are you kidding? You certainly haven’t added anything — much less addressed the question of this post. Either you can refute Niewert’s reporting or you can shut up. The rest of this is just belligerent hand waving to try to pretend you have a point.

    When you actually have something to say that adds to this discussion, so will the rest of us.

  45. a. price says:

    so rebel. all of you make your own hate spewing, ignorant, terrorized, gun filled, fascist society. maybe you can try suicide bombing.. make sure ot send your children like your Taliban templates do (my source for that is TEXAS REPUBLICAN PETE SESSIONS) Ameri-Queda that is what we are dealing with people. Folks whos right wing world has crumbled around them and the only neanderthal response the can muster is a grunted dibbling cry for “revolution”
    How many Americans do you want to kill. maybe.. 63 million?

  46. sfcmac says:

    During the last administration, all you moonbats could spout was “dissent is the highest form of patriotism” and hoist the requisite “Bush is Hitler” signs. You leftwingnuts are the reason why this country is saddled with a narcissistic socialist. The natives are restless and they’re not too pleased with Obamessiah’s tax, spend, and ruin, economic plans. He’s a human bug light for despots, terrorists, and thugs. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Hugo Chavez, and Kim Jong Il are salivating for a ‘change they can believe in’. ‘THE ONE’ is an empty suit with serious character flaws, and ethical and corruption problems. You just keep humping Obamessiah’s leg while the rest of us make sure that he doesn’t succeed in taking this country to hell in a handbasket.

    Get used to the protests. It’s the highest form of patriotism.

  47. wilky says:

    “anyone who thinks violence against the U.S government is the answer is a terrorist”

    Did you ever stop to think that at some point taxes are violence against the people?

  48. Independent says:

    a. price: I don’t think that ANYONE on this thread has advocated terrorism or armed revolution.

    It is childish of you to say that everyone on the thread who disagrees with your politics is a nut or a terrorist.

  49. d2e says:

    Dissent is the highest form of patriotism!

  50. a. price says:

    your form of dissent and mine are very different.
    and wilky… not that this could get through to you, but TAXES …. do you like roads, and people to put out fires? morons….
    i have an idea you all will like. let’s privatize EVERYTHING. Fire department. Military. D.O.T
    why not. ANARCHY IN THE U.S. free market has failed. get used it

  51. a. price says:

    “The natives are restless and they’re not too pleased with Obamessiah’s tax, spend, and ruin, economic plans.” – sfcmac
    so you mean the almost 70% approval rating. or the 63 million votes. or the 10 million donations.
    YOU ARE THE MINORITY

  52. cassandra_m says:

    Dissent is just fine. Tell your boys to stand down on threatening to hurt people.

    And I’d be delighted if you stopped paying your taxes. You won’t be blogging from jail, that’s for sure.

  53. Prague says:

    Just the fact that you can say this (the original post, to be clear) means the past eight years have not been anything even close to a dictatorship.

    Obviously, you have no idea what a real dictatorship is like. I suggest you go find someone who’s been lucky enough to escape from North Korea – or even a slightly less-repressive nation like Iran – and talk to them for a good long while.

  54. zenpig says:

    a.price
    Are you seriously mentally deficient enough to equate a video in the initial post with all “wing nuts”?…where “wing nuts” appears to be used as simply anyone who disagrees with you. You’re laziness in defining individuals is exactly the type of thing which I’m sure you find repulsive such as equating Muslims with all being terrorists. You make the same ad-hominem arguments and same strawman group generalizations(well, the facist left is pretty much about identity politics)over and over as some sort of defense of your beliefs I bet. I’ve noticed a big drop off in critical thought on the Left in the past few months which is pretty incredible since there wasn’t much to begin with in the first place.

  55. Independent says:

    cassandra m: I certainly did respond to the question, in post 31 at 6:38 p.m.

    In case you missed it because you were too busy crafting clever insults and telling people to shut up, I said that people who advocate terrorism should be locked up, but maniacs like that do not speak for the mainstream opposition.

    So when will we hear some clever insights from you? We are all waiting eagerly.

  56. Steve White says:

    So, okay, let’s address the post:

    … there is always tax evasion framed as an act of patriotism.

    Please, enough about President Obama’s cabinet. How many cabinet nominees had a tax problem? I think I’ve run out of fingers to count.

    Tax evasion is the province of the wealthy, since they pay enough taxes to consider evading them. That includes rich Democrats.

  57. T. Shaw says:

    Free speech for thee; but not for me!

    The Constitution! The Constritution! You lying sacs of human excrement don’t give a crap about the Constitution!

    The man now sitting in the WH is Constitutionally disqualified to be Prez. He was born in Kenya to a Kenyan father and ex-patriate mother. Go see his birth certificate. He’s probably not even a citizen.

    You asshats don’t give a dam about the Constitution.

    You minimally brain damaged, lisping liars has (I’m pretending I’m B. Hussein without the teleprompter – stick ‘em up we be here to take what is ours!) been assaulting the Constitution/Second Amendment for 50 years so that we couldn’t shoot back when you try impose your socialism/kleptocratic dicatorship.

    Socialism = trickle up poverty, dependency and desperation.

    Go read about the federal concentration camps in HR 645, liberal nitwits! See FDR concentration camps. See Lincoln end habeus corpus. See federal secret police massacre women children at Waco, TX 1993.

    Liberals are pure evil who elected that retard who would confiscate all that productive, personally responsible persons (evil rich) have worked to achieve their entire lives.

    EEjiots, you ain’t seen nothing, yet!

  58. a. price says:

    Did anyone who “im calling a terrorist” even bother to watch the video in the original post? THAT Batman villain is what i am railing against. Your tacit support of his advocation of terrorism is what is getting to me. say armed rebellion is off your table and i’ll take you seriously.

  59. Steve White says:

    Let’s address the post again, shall we?

    … when Bush was figuratively wiping his ass with the Constitution and wrecking the economy?

    The ‘wrecked economy’, over Bush’s eight years, had an enemployment rate of 5.2%.

    In the benighted Bill Clinton’s eight years, the unemployment rate was … 5.2%.

    We had real growth in 7 of 8 Bush years. We had big jumps in productivity. We had an increase in the proportion of taxes paid by the very wealthy. We had more people employed at the end of the Bush years than at the beginning. Sadly, President Obama can’t yet say that.

    Just about anyone would take the ‘wrecked economy’ of 2006 right now. That was a Bush year.

    And if the author of this post would like to ask why it is that Fannie and Freddie collapsed, we could talk about what Bush tried to do to rein them in versus what the Congressional Democrats did to keep the taps open.

  60. a. price says:

    “The man now sitting in the WH is Constitutionally disqualified to be Prez. He was born in Kenya to a Kenyan father and ex-patriate mother. Go see his birth certificate. He’s probably not even a citizen.”

    is that your argument? really?

  61. TRD says:

    I really hate these wingnuts, and want to fight them on facts. Can someone list all the ways in which Bush violated the Constitution? It would be a great asset while debating.

    P.S. Please leave out those Bush policies that Obama is continuing.

  62. a. price says:

    zenpig, you know absolutely nothing about my or my politics. pose an argument that doesn’t revolve around Glen Beck’s fear-script and we can talk on a real level

  63. Dana says:

    Ahhh, well I just spotted the incoming link to my article, Democrisy: Jesse Taylor and “Going Galt,” all the way up in Jason’s comment #3.

    But what did Jason say in that comment?

    And for the wingnuts too chickenshit to pick up arms and blow up federal building day care operations, there is always tax evasion framed as an act of patriotism.

    Let’s get some definitions straight here, shall we? Tax evasion normally means “Intentional avoidance of tax payment usually by inaccurately declaring taxable income.” Tax avoidance</i. means structuring your income as efficiently as possible to legally reduce your tax liability. Please note that in the fourth paragraph — out of only five — I referred to “legal tax avoidance,” and not income tax evasion, which is a crime.

    I did, however, mention tax evasion:

    This is pretty much in the same vein as all of the appointees of President Obama who were very much for increased taxes and government spending, yet somehow managed to underpay their own taxes. Somehow, according to Mr Taylor, it’s just plain wrong for people who advocate lower tax rates to try to find legal methods to avoid higher taxes, but there’s nothing particularly noteworthy about people who advocate higher taxes, for the good of the country, don’t you know, illegally failing to pay all of their taxes.

    People like Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner and former Secretary of HHS appointee Tom Daschle, and the list grows ever longer, all Democrats who supposedly supported higher taxes — Mr Daschle fought against the 2001 and 2003 Bush tax cuts when he was in teh Senate — yet somehow didn’t manage to pay all of the taxes they owed, these are the fine gentlemen President Obama appointed.

  64. Steve White says:

    Oh, let’s keep addressing the post, shall we?

    … when Bush was figuratively wiping his ass with the Constitution …

    This is a Democratic, particularly progressive mantra, but it’s funny that

    1) few can actually point to something specific that Bush did that even came close to violating the Constitution, and

    2) President Obama is in the process of defending each of the things President Bush did.

    Whether it’s holding dangerous terrorists, or listening in on their phone calls, etc, etc, the new boss has a striking resemblance to the old boss.

    Perhaps because the old boss knew something.

    If Jason really believes that Bush violated the Constitution, he could, in a separate post, provide a reasoned, careful, considered list of what Bush did, and why those things were violations.

    Hey, it’d be another post for you.

  65. Independent says:

    a. price: Armed rebellion is off the table.

    cassandra m: They’re not MY boys, but… “Boys, stand down on trying to hurt people.”

    jason330: could you give us some specifics about violations of the constitution under Bush?

  66. leo says:

    nice, typical liberal conversation.

  67. sfcmac says:

    @a. price // Mar 8, 2009 at 7:06 pm

    No sweetpea, I mean the growing number of dissidents under the current Socialist regime. Most of us don’t want to support a Socialist state with astronomical taxes. YOU are the minority.

  68. Steve White says:

    Let’s continue the conversation. Liz wrote:

    How many of those wingnuts are “rich”, or just wannebees.

    Is there something wrong with wanting to do better?

    They deny that George War Bush ran a dictatorship for 8 years.

    Correct, we deny it. He didn’t. Each and every American citizen is as free today as they were on January 19, 2001.

    The 4% of the wealthiest made a killing on the middle class and workers.

    Actually, no, the middle class and working class did better from 2001 – 2008 relative to the rich. You could look it up.

    They have always despised social security, medicare or medicaid.

    We don’t despise it, we’re unhappy with the way they’re run. We think there are ways to make them better, both for our citizens and for our country as a whole. We dissent from your party line, and as I recall, dissent IS the highest form of patriotism.

    They dont want to share, they want to own, to enslave, to destroy the middle class.

    My, that IS over the top, isn’t it. It’s that sort of rhetoric that makes us conservative snicker at you progressives.

    Most all of us in this country do well. The upper middle class and middle class have grown by leaps and bounds. There are fewer poor, even during the Bush years (down to about 12.5%). If the conservatives are trying to enslave they’re doing a lousy job of it.

  69. Dana says:

    Liz wrote:

    They deny that George War Bush ran a dictatorship for 8 years.

    Really? I noticed that this fine website, complete with calls to impeach President Bush, calls to try him and put him in jail, and all sorts of insults directed against him, was never shut down during the Bush Administration. So far, I’ve missed any articles telling me how Jason or Donviti or DD were arrested and thrown in jail.

    During the Bush “dictatorship” we somehow managed to have free elections, the last two of which were lost by the ruling party. When his term ended, President Bush surrendered power quite peacefully, in a very ordinary transition.

    During President Bush’s eight years in office, he certainly didn’t get his way on everything. Had he had his way, his 2001 and 2003 tax cuts would have been made permanent, and all of his judicial nominations would have been approved, just to mention a couple of things.

    Not a very dictatorship-like dictatorship if you ask me!

  70. Steve White says:

    Jason330 wrote:

    Just stop talking about killing people and seceded from the Union.

    I recall that any number of progressives, particularly the Hollywood ones, talked about moving to France or Canada. Guess that’s off the table.

    And I recall that it’s the hard-core progressives, the ANSWER types and so on, who glorify the sort of governing systems that require the proletariat to rise up and kill the bosses. Yes, Medea Benjamin and company still believe that nonsense.

    There are a few nuts on both sides. Focus on them and you miss the main conversation.

  71. a. price says:

    Thank you Independent seriously you are one of the few people to actually say that.
    now, that out of the way…
    You probably feel government is always bad and always messes up. And i would agree with you most of the time. fortunately, if we really controlled it, like we are supposed to…. and participated…. that is the key. we can have an effect.
    The thing about “the market”…. sorry 2 things… on, it is NOT GOD. humans created it. humans can control it. If we trust things like people’s health to some board’s bottom line, people will die. for that reason privatized health care is fundamentally flawed. same with energy. the supply of wind and sun is endless… so the price cant go up and make people rich…
    yes the government messes things up, but it can be fixed. the philosophy of getting rich from things people need to live is insane. it is just like the fire dep, the police, and the military. they are more important than some “invisible hand”

  72. TRD says:

    When his term ended, President Bush surrendered power quite peacefully, in a very ordinary transition.

    I think Bush and that fucking Cheney are just trying to fool us by pretending to give up power. Has anyone seen Cheney since the inauguration? I bet he is still in his undisclosed location.

  73. jason330 says:

    Independent,

    I find it interesting that so many commenters leap to stomp on the notion that they are a bunch of unhindged lunatics. (I take it from your comments that you are not and I appreciate that.)

    Any yet I don’t see any energy being put into calling out the lunatics in your midsts. It is that silence that gives me the impression that, if not murderous, your movement is sympathetic to murders they regard as patriots.

    Re: The Constitution and Bush. Please. You are better than that. But for the sake of collegiality – three words “unitary executive theory.”

  74. Steve White says:

    Jason points to this:

    “Where were all these chest thumping domestic terrorists wannabes who are so eager to revolt and break away from the United States when Bush was literally wiping his ass with the Constitution and wrecking the economy?

    I suppose this needs to be answered just to ease Jason’s mind.

    First, no serious person is eager to revolt. There are a few nutters on the right. They’re still vastly outnumbered by the nutters on the left. Thank goodness.

    Second, as noted before, Jason, you haven’t really enumerated how Bush wrecked the Constitution and the economy.

    I’ve gone through your archives some. There’s a lot of complaining there. Never mind that your complaints seem to be rather thin on the facts, but if George Bush really had been interested in wrecking the Constitution, you would have been arrested and locked away in a Cheney Camp in Idaho, never to be heard of again.

    You’re still there in Delaware swinging away. Think about that.

  75. Steve White says:

    Jason points to these three words:

    “unitary executive theory.”

    Those three words are just as popular in the Obama administration as they were in the Bush administration, as you’ll come to see.

  76. Paul says:

    “not that this could get through to you, but TAXES …. do you like roads, and people to put out fires? ”

    So, you’re saying we cannot fund these legitimate duties of government on our current levels of taxation? You do realize most firemen retire around 50 with gold plated pensions that are half the reason for the huge deficits run by most municipalities in this country?

  77. zenpig says:

    a. price says ” Your tacit support of his advocation of terrorism is what is getting to me”

    hehe…yeah, I saw it a couple of weeks ago. How have you come to the conclusion that “wing nuts” have a tacit support of terrorising the U.S. govt. ? I agree with the sentiment that there is a point that a govt. at some point can become something that it shouldn’t to it’s citizens and I’d expect revolt at that point…I’m assuming you think the revolution which began this grand experiment in self rule was a good thing? But, I don’t hold the conveyor of the message in the video as anything but an individual expressing himself the way he sees fit. The fact that you can lump whole groups of people into that one video and continue to do so post after post leads me to believe you are void of cognitive skills and probaby have more in common with the way you want to deal with the world with the guy in the video than what makes you comfortable.

  78. TRD says:

    three words “unitary executive theory.”

    Wiki says that Unitary Executive theory holds that the President has exclusive control over the executive branch. I think it is dangerous to give the President so much power. We should try to limit the President’s power. But I am torn. I want President Obama to have all the power he wants. He needs it to bring hope and change.

  79. a. price says:

    “So, you’re saying we cannot fund these legitimate duties of government on our current levels of taxation? You do realize most firemen retire around 50 with gold plated pensions that are half the reason for the huge deficits run by most municipalities in this country?”
    so you mean the NYC firefighters injured in 9/11 who lost health benefits under Bush… and i can name (but i wont) family members who would disagree. you also say that as is people who run into burning buildings to save lives deserve any less.

  80. Dana says:

    OK, Jason, perhaps you can tell us just how President Bush “iguratively wip(ed) his ass with the Constitution.” At last call, it seems that the FISA Court decided that the warrantless wiretaps did not violate the Constitution, the part in their very purview. The Supreme Court has held that certain legal arguments made by the Administration would not work, but when that happened, the proper legal procedures were followed.

    I will be impressed with arguments about President Bush “iguratively wiping his ass with the Constitution” when I see them made via Samizdat circulations from dissenters President Bush has imprisoned. Had our esteemed host been locked up for writing something scurrilous about the President, I’d have been more impressed with his statement.

  81. Roger Godby says:

    Liz, speak truth to power! GWB the dictator remains in power (Obama’s election being a clever subterfuge), readers on the list are being disappeared, Hollywood is cranking out jingoist propaganda, public executions have returned, guns are being confiscated, “Those who do not obey do not eat”–yes, a dictatorship!

    What would we do, Liz, without genii like yourself? I’m guessing you’re a Bush plant to rile up others into revealing themselves so the Bushies in power can swoop in and disappear those who dissent against the GOP.

  82. When I grow up I want to be a cheerleader, bankrupt 2 of my daddy’s oil companies.

    Then I want to suspend the First and 4th ammendment

    wooohoooo

  83. Bilgeman says:

    jason330:
    “So dissent moron. Just stop talking about killing people and seceded from the Union.”

    No, I don’t think we’re going to stop.

    I think we’re going to get louder.

    Where liberals are taking this nation, we don’t want to go.

    So we want a divorce, and to make our own way.
    It will be better for all of us if we don’t have to live in the same house…because we are NOT all “Americans” anymore.

    You don’t have anything against divorce…. do you?

  84. TRD says:

    I am sure Bush imprisoned many liberals. We don’t hear from them anymore because they are behind bars in some secret prison.

  85. jason330 says:

    Steve,

    Okay. I have to walk the dog. Like I said earlier – please be my guest and “go Galt”. I think the country will manage somehow.

    Just don’t shoot anyone over the fact that you think Bush was awesome and Obama isn’t.

    Deal?

  86. Paul says:

    “You probably feel government is always bad and always messes up. And i would agree with you most of the time. fortunately, if we really controlled it, like we are supposed to…. and participated…. that is the key. we can have an effect.”

    You’re an idealist, and there’s nothing wrong with that. My father was one for a long time and then realized you cannot control government without keeping it as small and as local as possible. You will never, ever be able to exert any sort of control over the federal government. It will continue to grow until it swallows all of us. Government serves government, and no one else. If I had to choose between government picking society’s winners and losers and the free market, I’ll take the free market any day of the week. At least that gives me a fighting chance.

  87. a. price says:

    I think we’re going to get louder.

    “Where liberals are taking this nation, we don’t want to go.

    So we want a divorce, and to make our own way.
    It will be better for all of us if we don’t have to live in the same house…because we are NOT all “Americans” anymore.”
    Dont let the door hitcha on the way out

  88. orthodoc says:

    OK, I’ll bite.

    Can you give specific examples of where Bush acted unconstitutionally, and not simply examples where you disagreed with his policies?

    For example:
    Suspending habeas corpus for American citizens: unconstitutional

    Putting enemy combatants not wearing uniforms and not clearly identified as soldiers in Gitmo: policy you disagree with.

    Thanks.

  89. I think after reading most of the this thread is how “literally” definition ignorant most of the “patriots” are.

    Everyone seems to know what a dictatorship is and why it does NOT apply to Bush.

    Everyone seems to know what a real American is, but a liberal is not one.

    Every seems to know that Bush was a great president, except for the like 75% of Americans that said he was horrible and the majority of Historians that know way more than these tools.

    Everyone knows what terrorism. Duh, it’s Muslim’s, anything else isn’t terrorism, it’s just a crazy guy.

    Everyone is fine with getting rid of a “tyrant” because killing is fine and good when it is to kill bad guys. And, well, as long as they get to deem who the bad guys are, then they are right.

  90. a. price says:

    Paul, honestly, no disrespect to your father. but idealists cannot give up. our founding fathers were idealists. abolitionists… idealists. civil rights leaders.. idealists. we can keep everyone safe and healthy and in moving cars without becoming communist russia.

  91. TRD says:

    If I had to choose between government picking society’s winners and losers and the free market, I’ll take the free market any day of the week.

    Why can’t we all be winners? This is America. The government can make us all winners. Free market is so hateful.

  92. Steve White says:

    Jason writes:

    Okay. I have to walk the dog. Like I said earlier – please be my guest and “go Galt”. I think the country will manage somehow.

    Just don’t shoot anyone over the fact that you think Bush was awesome and Obama isn’t.

    That’s rather cowardly — you don’t want to address the points.

    No one is going to shoot you. Bush isn’t awesome, though Obama is not looking very good to start out.

    The country will manage. For one thing, we’re going to turn a lot of Democrats out of Congress in 2010.

  93. Paul says:

    “so you mean the NYC firefighters injured in 9/11 who lost health benefits under Bush… and i can name (but i wont) family members who would disagree. you also say that as is people who run into burning buildings to save lives deserve any less.”

    Do some research into how firemen and police unions control local governments across this country. My grandfather was a fireman in Mass, so I know what I speak of. He paid under the table to get the job and then again later to try to get the Chief job. As he was fond of telling me when I was just a boy and he was retired, “I’m making more money now than I ever did in my life.” He never once had his life in any serious danger.

    Check the stats. Fireman is not one of the 10 most dangerous jobs in the nation. Number 1 is truckers. Would you like them to get gold plated pensions and retire at 50? Should all of us play confiscatory taxes and scrimp to barely be able to retire so these people can live high on the hog for 40 years?

    So while it’s cute that you singled out the exception to the rule (9/11 firemen), that is not the reality across the nation.

  94. jason330 says:

    Bilgeman,

    Thanks for the candor. Now I’m gone for about 15 min. Talk amongst your crazy selves.

  95. Paul says:

    And I should add I’m more than happy to give them pensions at a more reasonable age (i.e. 60).

  96. Dana says:

    As I read the second article Jason linked, I noted the list of states which have passed 10th Amendment resolutions: Washington, New Hampshire, Arizona, Montana, Michigan, Missouri, Oklahoma, California, Georgia, South Carolina, and Texas. Four of them were carried by President Obama, by rather large margins.

  97. Bilgeman says:

    If this site is indicative of Liberal “thought” in Delaware, then I can see why that “highway rest stop” of a state kept sending Joe Biden to Congress.

    He must be the smartest man in all three counties.

    Delaware’s motto: “Tour Buses Welcome!”

  98. Paul says:

    Price, no you can’t. Once you give government too much power, it eventually leads to dicatatorship. Just remember when we get nationalized health care and the first of your aged loved ones are told they’re too old to get that life extending procedure and it’s also illegal to pay of it themselves. Remember I told you so.

  99. Dana says:

    Jason wrote:

    Now I’m gone for about 15 min.

    Well, when you come back, how ’bout releasing my comment (#62) from moderation? :)

  100. Ein Volk! Ein Reich! Ein Obama! says:

    That’s basically it. If we–the taxpaying protestors–don’t goose step to Dear Leader’s economic and foreign policies we’re labeled “domestic terrorists”. Gotta love those leftwing moonbats.
    They paraded with anti-American/pro-Islamofascist signs and screamed the usual recitations about “Bush= Hitler” , but don’t you dare question their “patriotism”. Now that there’s a growing movement of dissent and protest over a socialist dictator in the White House, they get their panties in a wad.

    Your Obamessiah sure has a grip on leadership and the Constitution:

    He’s filled his cabinet with tax cheats and even appointed one to run the IRS.

    He’s assembled a group of hand-selected insiders to pressure the inspector general from conducting internal investigations not approved by the White House.

    He appointed a White House counsel research director who holds no law degree or legal training. Her ‘qualification’? Digging up dirt on DNC political rivals for campaign attacks.

    The dirtbag he chose as head of the Justice Department had a hand in pardoning a fugitive felon (Marc Rich)who happened to be Clinton campaign donor.

    He’s kowtowing to America’s enemies including Iran and North Korea.

    He’s implementing a tax and spend, trillion dollar bailout/stimulus/omnibus that’s already showing ominous signs of sending our economy into a hellish depression.

    Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State?
    Hi-lar-i-ous.

    He wants to appoint a Saudi wahibist tool as head of the National Intelligence Council.

    And that’s just what he’s done during the firat 100 days of his presidential catastophe.

    Brace yourselves, leftwing nuts. There’s more dissent to come.

    We will demand that Obama and his ACORN gang be brought to justice for voter fraud, racketeering, and abuse of law enforcement through intimidation of critics. The federal laws they broke during this campaign were blatant, numerous, and sanctioned by Obama and his staff.

    We will be unrelenting in our call for the investigation of radical miscreants like William Ayers, and prosecution of any and all militant Islamic individuals, groups, and sects, including CAIR, Nation of Islam, and the AAAN (Arab American Action Network). They shouldn’t be allowed in this country to begin with, and the State Department needs to be held accountable for their presence.

    We will continue to hammer the MSM leftwing mouthpieces–MSNBC, ABC, MBC, ABC, and CNN–for their rancid anti-American bias. We’ll also make sure the Democrat effetes in Congress and Senate, who got placed there by equally unconscionable constituents, continue to get the hell they so richly deserve.

    DISSENT IS PATRIOTIC!

  101. a. price says:

    do you like what republicans did to our vets? forcing them to stay in moldy hospitals? not letting them get health care for PTSD to save costs? Rummy’s evil statement about “you go to war with the army you have” as a way of justifying not giving our soldiers proper armor? all the while making sure KBR and Halliburton got theirs…. and ectra 9 million dollar contract for towels in barracks that have the KBR LOGO ON THEM?!?! so many of our countrymen are dead because of how the last administration “fought for our freedom” it boarders on war crimes. NOT for “what they did to iraqis” in all honest FUCK THEM. it is for what they did you American service men and women

  102. Independent says:

    Jason,

    Regarding Bush and the constitution: Certainly there is disagreement between constitutional law scholars on the unitary executive theory. While I am far from a constitutional scholar myself, it is my understanding that the disagreement is about the theoretical limitations of judicial power as it relates to the chief executive ‘s constitutional obligation to faithfully execute the laws. Do you consider this theoretical disagreement to be literally (or figuratively!) “wiping his ass with the Constitution?” Or do you think that there were some actual unconstitutional transgressions that took place?

    Regarding calling out the lunatics: have you demonstrated a dedication to calling out the lunatics on the left over the past eight years?

    I also agree with Steve White’s posts, above, so I won’t reiterate the points he made. Well put, Steve.

  103. TRD says:

    There is this joke:

    Why did they name that bridge ‘Delaware Memorial Bridge’? Because otherwise people will forget that Delaware exists.

    I think that joke was created by a neo-conservative, reactionary, nazi fascist wingnut.

  104. a. price says:

    “Ein Volk! Ein Reich! Ein Obama!” fuck off nazi

  105. this one is funny!

    My father was one for a long time and then realized you cannot control government without keeping it as small and as local as possible.

    Right, because under Reagan who was re elected and W. who was also government grew to historic size..

    uh, huh, suspend your philosophy when your party is in Charge.

    Your patriotism isn’t a gallon of milk you get to pull out of the refrigerator and use at your convenience.

  106. Paul says:

    “uh, huh, suspend your philosophy when your party is in Charge.

    Your patriotism isn’t a gallon of milk you get to pull out of the refrigerator and use at your convenience.”

    Don, not sure what your point is. I never said I hated my country because of the current Administration. I also never favored the large government policies of Mr. Bush. Nice strawman.

  107. LogicalUS says:

    Looks like another of Obama’s Welfare Nation is getting worried that his “gubermint” check will not be coming in the mail!

    At this point only the seriously retarded are still taking up for Barry Hussein Obama. He is the complete disaster those damn “wingnuts” said he was going to be.

    Here is a term which this liberal fool needs to learn because it is coming for him and fellow leeches…”Silent Majority”.

  108. Paul,

    So, you’re saying we cannot fund these legitimate duties of government on our current levels of taxation? You do realize most firemen retire around 50 with gold plated pensions that are half the reason for the huge deficits run by most municipalities in this country?

    So? what’s wrong with a pension? You do realize that many places have volunteer fire co’s that don’t get shit but a tax break for volunteering.

    I would think that one serving it’s citizens with it’s life on the line is worth something? I guess you feel the same way about a veteran…

  109. wilky says:

    wilky… not that this could get through to you, but TAXES …. do you like roads, and people to put out fires? morons….

    I guess you missed the word”at some point.”

    What, are you at a 5th grade reading level?

  110. a. price says:

    one example? that is it? do you live there? or did you hear about that from Rush. no surprise it comes from a republican website. you laud firefighters as heros and treat them as slaves. they save lives. we owe them AT LEAST the best possible retirement

  111. a. price says:

    again vets being denied health care or treatment, records lost and people made physically or mentally disabled in defense if their country…. all this by a party who’s mantra is “support the troops” BULL. oh and when they speak out… when they ask the government honor it’s contract.. they are called “phony soldiers” by a fat drug addict who has no idea what service means

  112. Dana says:

    By the way, thanks, Jason: 28 out of my last 80 visitors were referred by you! :)

  113. Ein Volk! Ein Reich! Ein Obama! says:

    @ a. price // Mar 8, 2009 at 7:47 pm

    “fuck off nazi”? That’s pretty funny considering Obama’s methods and policies are fascist in nature.

    Seig Obama. Sucker.

  114. liz says:

    Take a poll…how many republicans are volunteer firefighters! How many are soldiers? How many are volunteering anywhere!

  115. Dana says:

    Donviti, aren’t the vast majority of firemen’s pensions the responsibility of municipal or county government? What has this to do with a federal argument?

  116. Paul says:

    “So? what’s wrong with a pension? You do realize that many places have volunteer fire co’s that don’t get shit but a tax break for volunteering.

    I would think that one serving it’s citizens with it’s life on the line is worth something? I guess you feel the same way about a veteran…”

    Actually, many volunteer fire dept’s get pensions now. My hometown was volunteer. They now get generous pension benefits that are better than my father’s military pension (yes, my Dad was military and my grandfather was a fireman-how about that?)

    One of the reasons my father fled Connecticut (where I grew up) was he was tired of getting fleeced by the town and State governments, paying for their bloated government pensions and budgets.

    I’ll say again, I think both the military and firemen, and policemen deserve pensions. Reasonable pensions at an age that would be considered a normal retirement age for the rest of us non-government schlubs.

    Here’s what I think they don’t deserve. They don’t deserve to retire after 20 years at near full pay. They shouldn’t get to work tons of overtime the 2-3 years before retirement to inflate their pensions beyond what was intended ($120,000 a year pensions for a cop???) They shouldn’t get to retire at 48 and live off of us for 40 years.

    This type of gravy is UNSUSTAINABLE. Anyone with any sort of background in finance or accounting could tell you this. Go to http://www.pensiontsunami.com It’s down right now, but it’s all there in black and white.

  117. Arty says:

    Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing it’s idiot.

  118. TRD says:

    It is also the duty of the Government to help those whose mortgages are under water. They were showing on CNN the other day a lady who is a bus driver and she bought a 800 thousand house on a mortgage, and cannot pay the installments anymore. It is the duty of the Government to help her, otherwise she will become homeless. Is it her fault that the housing market tanked?

  119. Dana says:

    liz asked:

    Take a poll…how many republicans are volunteer firefighters! How many are soldiers? How many are volunteering anywhere!

    Well, I’m too old, but my daughter is in basic training at Fort Jackson; good enough for you?

  120. Paul says:

    Don’t listen to Rush. Never have. Again, nice strawman. You guys are good at that here.

  121. amr says:

    Ah, most of the people here, as Liz, wouldn’t know a dictatorship if they tripped over one. As I told one young man last year at an anti-war demonstration yelling Bush was a dictator that if Bush was, instead of police, there there would have been troops and he would be dead. He wasn’t impressed. Try living under one and then come back, if you survive, and tell us about the experience. One learns to appreciate the imperfect US once you have.

    I laugh when I see Code Pink ladies chaining themselves to Marine recruiting office doors and yelling that the Marines are baby killers. Well, if they were, those older ladies in pink wouldn’t last a minute; but then they knew the truth when they chained themselves to the door or they wouldn’t have done so.

  122. a. price says:

    they should get treated like heros. the country treats them like burdens

  123. liz says:

    Dontcha just love these repukes. Bush was NOT elected….Bush was a dictator for 8 years, we are still living under his dictatorial laws, and these morons have the nerve to be referring to Obama as ze nazi!

    We just lived under 8 years of fascism and really still are. Its about the restoration of the complete Consitution, until thats done…its still a dictatorship.

  124. Paul says:

    My Dad was Naval Air. Flew fighters off a carrier. You couldn’t hold his jock. He hates big government like me.

  125. Paul,

    what’s wrong with everyone having health care?

  126. TRD says:

    Take a poll…how many republicans are volunteer firefighters! How many are soldiers?

    Soldiers are mostly liberal, right? If not, why would us liberals always be defending them?

  127. Paul says:

    “Dontcha just love these repukes. Bush was NOT elected….Bush was a dictator for 8 years, we are still living under his dictatorial laws, and these morons have the nerve to be referring to Obama as ze nazi!

    We just lived under 8 years of fascism and really still are. Its about the restoration of the complete Consitution, until thats done…its still a dictatorship.”

    Why aren’t you in jail then? Go to Venezeula and say these things about Chavez. See what happens in a real dictatorship.

  128. a. price says:

    when republican elected official after republican elected officials apologize to him and praise him as a leader, he becomes much more than a strawman. we may have started the fire… i admit that, but the Rs threw gas on it

  129. Orthodoc,

    when George McGovern called for Bush’s Impeachment that’s when you should have gotten a clue. If you still need examples of how bush raped the constitution then there is little point presenting them to you now.

  130. Bilgeman says:

    #99 a price:
    “Rummy’s evil statement about “you go to war with the army you have” as a way of justifying not giving our soldiers proper armor?”

    It was a statement of fact, numbnuts.

    We went into Iraq with war materiel that was pre-loaded on ships anchored at Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean for up to 3 years before the war even started.

    I know, because I sailed them.

    I s’pose Rummy was “evil” because he didn’t use his M1A1 Crystal Ball to foresee that the IED roadside bomb would become Al Qaeda’s weapon of choice .

    Now if Clinton hadn’t been so dedicated to cutting the defense budget, the lads may have had more and better weapons.
    And better facilities at the VA system.

    And if Bush hadn’t spent over a year dickin’ around with those corrupt tards at the UN that Liberals love so much, then Saddam wouldn’t have had the time to prepare as much as he did.

    Which would have saved a lot more lives than any MRAAP vehicles that might have been operationally deployed.

  131. TRO says:

    I would love to hear what Bush did to the Constitution as well. Seems to me we have the same rights now as we did before he was elected. We are all still dissenting without any fear of government stopping us. Well, except for the Dems trying to bring back the Fairness Doctrine.

    Oh, and what do you say about Obama keeping the Patriot Act, FISA warrants, Gitmo (do you really think he is going to close it?), the rendition policy, etc. etc.?

  132. Paul says:

    Don, if you’re ok with being told you can’t have life extending h.c. because you’re too old or that you can’t have that knee replacement because you’re too old to “enjoy the benefits” then have at it. There is not such thing as a free lunch. Free HC for everyone means government rationing.

  133. a. price says:

    TRD, i can’t tell if you are trying to be sarcastic or not… but bilking soldiers out of care, and stop lossing them to 5 and 6 deployments after their contract said 3 at the most is not defending them, it is abusing them.

  134. Dana says:

    liz wrote:

    Its about the restoration of the complete Consitution, until thats done…its still a dictatorship.

    So, liz, just what parts do you think have been suspended? Please, be specific.

  135. TRD says:

    If you still need examples of how bush raped the constitution then there is little point presenting them to you now.

    Don Hussein, I think you should still list the specifics of how Bush raped the constitution. It will be a great help for novices like me. Also, please leave out those policies that President Obama is continuing.

  136. TRD says:

    A Price, when did I even talk about soldiers? I completely agree with you on that. I was talking about mortgage holders.

  137. Dana says:

    Well, for those of you who think that the Bush Administration terribly abused our soldiers, here’s video of the Marines in Anbar — meaning: they are all deployed in Iraq — greeting President Bush, contrasted with Marines at Camp Lejune, who aren’t in Iraq, greeting President Obama.

    The venues are somewhat different to be sure, but even the CNN anchor referred to the Marines’ greeting of President Obama as “tepid.”

  138. TRD says:

    I believe everybody should have healthcare, and the rich people should pay for it. To not do so is fascism.

  139. Independent says:

    liz: “Take a poll…how many republicans are volunteer firefighters! How many are soldiers? How many are volunteering anywhere!”

    Liz, excellent point. Nationwide, conservatives are much more likely to volunteer their time, and donate their personal money to charity, than liberals. Perhaps it is because they believe in the power of the individual, not the state, to make a difference. Liberals donate less and volunteer less, probably because they have more faith that government programs will solve society’s problems. It is one of the great philosophical differences between the two groups.

    Members of the military are also more likely to be conservative and Republican, maybe because their warrior ethic is based in a belief that American military power can make a positive difference in the world.

  140. liz says:

    Yes, Bush ran a dictatorship. John Yoo told him it was okay to pick up people off the streets, send them to other countries to be tortured and never see an attorney, never be charged, and never see a court of law. Yoo told Bush you can do it, cuz your the President. Perhaps Yoo and the Bush regime spent a little time reading Russian style government, especially the gulag part, or Hitlers understanding of freedom and justice. When corporations, press and goverment act in unison, in collusion that is the definition of fascism.

    Patriot Act? that wipes away about 4 amendments of the Constitution.

    Habeus Corpus….I could go on and on. Lets hope the Leahy Truth Commission or John Conyers who has 100,000 documents ready to prove we were under dictatorship for 8 years actually sees the light of day. I dont care which party is in power, the one document everyone should be backing is the Consitution. No one is above the law….no one!

  141. That’s basically it. If we–the taxpaying protestors–don’t goose step to Dear Leader’s economic and foreign policies we’re labeled “domestic terrorists”.

    and if you dissented in 2005 you were a liberal pussy that hated America.

    Weird huh?

  142. Army Vet says:

    @110 a. price // Mar 8, 2009 at 7:55 pm

    Denied health care? You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. I’m a retired Soldier and Iraq war vet. I have NEVER been denied health care.

    I was also smart enough to keep complete copies of my 201 file and medical records.

    Your party of Democrat wackjobs has done its damndest to denigrate the service of military personnel.

    Cynthia McKinney: “The entire ‘Saving Private Lynch in Iraq’ episode was staged by the US military”, Patty Murray: “bin Laden builds day-care facilities…we haven’t done that”.

    Dick Durbin called us “nazis” on the floor of the Senate, and Harry Reid declared the Iraq war “lost”. He must be real dissapointed that we won.

    Yeah, you turds really “support the troops”. But only, as stated by the signs you wave, if we desert, commit treason, or “shoot our officers”.

    You want phony soldiers? Check out the malfeasants in the IVAW.

    YOU have no idea what service means.

    Shut the fuck up.

  143. Saint Patton says:

    Liberals are so cute when they act tough, like five year olds running around with tough looks on their faces.

  144. My Dad was Naval Air. Flew fighters off a carrier. You couldn’t hold his jock. He hates big government like me.

    I will assume then you didn’t vote for Reagan or Bush

  145. Bilgeman says:

    Don Hussein:
    “when George McGovern called for Bush’s Impeachment that’s when you should have gotten a clue”

    Is George McGovern still alive?

    How many states did he carry back in 1972?

    Ah…so.

    Maybe next you’ll search out quotes from Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis.

    WTF should i care what some superannuated Democratic landslide-loser have to say about anything?

    Do you hear Conservatives dredging up the collected sayings of J. Danforth Quayle?
    (and at least Quayle was elected).

  146. Paul says:

    Liz, you’re a looney tunes. Looney tunes. I hate name calling, but there’s no getting around it. With that, good night folks. I know most of you mean well, but you and everyone like you will destroy this nation and everything it once stood for.

  147. Army Vet says:

    @Donhusseinsquishviti // Mar 8, 2009 at 8:11 pm:

    There’s one difference…the liberal pussies still hate America.

    Weird, huh?

  148. Pargo says:

    –and if you dissented in 2005 you were a liberal pussy that hated America.
    Weird huh?–

    Not so weird; liberals are still pussies and still hate America.

  149. jason330 says:

    While I am far from a constitutional scholar myself, it is my understanding that the disagreement is about the theoretical limitations of judicial power as it relates to the chief executive ’s constitutional obligation to faithfully execute the laws. Do you consider this theoretical disagreement to be literally (or figuratively!) “wiping his ass with the Constitution?” Or do you think that there were some actual unconstitutional transgressions that took place?

    I think the theory was thin cover for a President who wanted to push the envelope on executive power. So I would say that bypassing FISA, the use of signing statements that invalidated duly enacted, and the suspension of habeas corpus are some of the figurative ways Bush defiled the Constitution.

    That is not to mention a great many of our national traditions and practices that he dispensed with, chief among them (as you can see in this thread) being the poisoning of the well of civil discourse and the creation of armed political camps.

    Where we once had policy differences but were all Americans, now we have this kind of thing:

    Hey Jason…..when Baroque Obozo squirts his criminal cum in your mouth,do you swallow it right away or do you french your mommy and share it with her?

    …from the moderated comments.

  150. Paul,

    First off I know people in Canada, so, spare me your bullshit.

    2nd off, I’m not a rocket scientist but call me crazy if we are going to adopt the same problems as other countries.

    Sort of like going back to the drawing board for the Gremlin and coming out and rebuilding the Gremlin the exact same way.

  151. Dana says:

    Donviti presents a classic diversion:

    when George McGovern called for Bush’s Impeachment that’s when you should have gotten a clue. If you still need examples of how bush raped the constitution then there is little point presenting them to you now.

    The “you ought to know” argument is sometimes successful in diverting attention away from the fact that the original writer really doesn’t know what he’s talking about, or have an actual specific complaint, when the readers are inattentive. It’s when the audience actually reads the argument that it falls apart; prove to us that you have a specific, educated complaint.

  152. TRD says:

    Liz, last I heard, President Obama’s administration is defending Rendition and Patriot act.

    Do you have anything else?

    Also, can you site a specific link about Bush’s order suspending Habeus Curpus?

  153. Why aren’t you in jail then? Go to Venezeula and say these things about Chavez. See what happens in a real dictatorship.

    I guess you chose to ignore the Canadian and the German that were imprisoned illegally and released back to their country’s with not one charge against them…

    but don’t let facts get in your way

  154. FLTom says:

    “unitary executive theory”

    Bush’s highly conventional position about the power of the presidency, a position identical to, or sometimes merely slightly varying from, the one taken by many constitutional scholars over the last 200 years on both sides of the aisle, is proof of his “dictatorship?”

    Best laugh I’ve had in a long, long time.

    Goodbye “delawareliberal”. My two hour sojourn into your domain is over, never to be repeated.

  155. Bilgeman says:

    liz:
    “Patriot Act? that wipes away about 4 amendments of the Constitution.”

    Then why is it STILL the law of the land in Obamerica?

    He passed the Stimulus Bill lickety-split, didn’t he?

    Why is Guantanamo STILL open?

    Why are we STILL in Iraq?

    Why are there STILL earmarks in the Stimulus and the Budget bills?

    Are you STILL “Hoping” for “Change”?

    Do you know what the word “chump” means?

  156. Dana,

    .By the way, thanks, Jason: 28 out of my last 80 visitors were referred by you! :)

    Thanks that should add about .001% to our daily numbers….wooopieee

  157. Ein Volk?

    Give me a few example of Obama’s Fascism

  158. TRD says:

    bypassing FISA, the use of signing statements that invalidated duly enacted, and the suspension of habeas corpus are some of the figurative ways Bush defiled the Constitution.

    bypassing FISA: Obama is continuing those exact policies.

    signing statements: just like Clinton before him. And specific examples please.

    suspension of habeas corpus : For Americans? Link please.

  159. orthodoc says:

    “Orthodoc,

    when George McGovern called for Bush’s Impeachment that’s when you should have gotten a clue. If you still need examples of how bush raped the constitution then there is little point presenting them to you now.”

    I stand vanquished by your call to reason.

    Right. George McGovern as a constitutional scholar. Let’s see. He states
    “All of this has been done without the declaration of war from Congress that the Constitution clearly requires, in defiance of the U.N. Charter and in violation of international law. This reckless disregard for life and property, as well as constitutional law, has been accompanied by the abuse of prisoners, including systematic torture, in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions of 1949.”

    Leaving behind the fact the Congress voted overwhelmingly in favor of the use of force, and despite the fact that Democrats throughout the Clinton administration repeatedly called for Saddam Hussein’s overthrow, the argument that the Constitution requires the assent of the UN, or with “international law,” is nonsensical.

    As for treatment of prisoners, there was significant disagreement about how to treat terrorists captured on the battlefield; the disagreement went as far as the Supreme Court; when the Court ruled, the Bush administration complied with their ruling.

    I’ll say it again, Either come up with a real example, or STFU.

  160. Independent says:

    Liz:

    How did your favorite Senator or Representative vote on the Patriot Act?

    Biden: Yea
    Boxer: Yea
    Clinton: Yea
    Kennedy: Yea
    Kerry: Yea
    Pelosi: Yea
    Reid: Yea
    Schumer: Yea

    etc, etc, etc…

  161. jason330 says:

    Goodnight. Try not to kill anyone tomorrow. Okay?

  162. signing statements: just like Clinton before him. And specific examples please.

    I thought clinton was Line Item veto. Big difference no?

  163. Von Cracker says:

    Is this where someone screams”White Power”?
    :twisted:

    People confuse dissent and sedition all the time. Those people tend to be stupid.

  164. TRD says:

    >>Line Item veto

    really? Clinton did that? I don’t think there is such a thing. You either veto the whole thing, or sign the whole thing.

  165. Bilge,

    I s’pose Rummy was “evil” because he didn’t use his M1A1 Crystal Ball to foresee that the IED roadside bomb would become Al Qaeda’s weapon of choice .

    No, because he went to war with the “army he had” he didn’t listen to experts, he allowed way more people to die then needed to and didn’t properly equip his men.

    He was part of the group that thought de-baathification was the right thing to do when it wasn’t.

    he had no exit plan either

  166. Bilgeman says:

    liz:
    “Yes, Bush ran a dictatorship. John Yoo told him it was okay to pick up people off the streets, send them to other countries to be tortured and never see an attorney, never be charged, and never see a court of law.”

    Do you know what extradition is?

    You are sent to stand trial in another country.

    No one raised much of a fuss about accused Nazi war criminal John Demjanjuk back in the day, who was extradited to the Soviet Union to experience their justice system.
    He wasn’t tried in US courts, mind you, just stripped of his citizenship and packed off on Aeroflot.

    So why all the hullaballoo about sending some Arab Muslim back to an Arab Muslim nation to face Arab Muslim justice?

  167. Dana says:

    Jason gets more specific:

    I think the theory was thin cover for a President who wanted to push the envelope on executive power. So I would say that bypassing FISA, the use of signing statements that invalidated duly enacted, and the suspension of habeas corpus are some of the figurative ways Bush defiled the Constitution.

    Let’s take those one at a time, shall we? The FISA Court itself said that the Bush Administration wasn’t in violation of the law.

    How did signing statements invalidate laws that President Bush signed? The most that the signing statements can do is to put forth the executive’s intent in signing the law, should it ever face a court challenge. Legally, they are indistinguishable from the way courts sometimes look at congressional intent when trying to figure out what any ambiguities in the law might mean.

    Habeus corpus was not suspended, as it was used by Yaser Esam Hamdi, on appeal all the way to the Supreme Court.

    President Bush won some and lost some in his constitutional interpretation; not sure how that works out to be his “figurative(ly) defil(ing) the Constitution,” unless you wish to hold that the losing party in any constitutional question has somehow defiled the Constitution.

  168. hey Army Vet,

    Uhhhh? The Jessica Lynch thing was fucking staged.

    She even said so on Capital Hill.

  169. Army vet,

    don’t watch this. Remain in your bubble where it is nice and safe..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0OyihqYfF4

  170. Independent says:

    Jason,

    I think that other commenters were faster than me at rebutting your “defiled constitution” examples, but…

    Do you really think that George W. Bush personally poisoned the well of civil discourse? Really? I am old enough to remember the way liberals spoke about Reagan in the 80s, and the way just about everyone spoke about Carter and Nixon in the 70s. Hell, they were viciously mocking Grover Cleveland back in the 1800s! I think people have always had strong feelings about politics. The ability to post those feelings online anonymously has more to do with the kind of mindless or gross insults we see these days than anything that Bush ever did.

    BTW: did you actually say that Bush created armed political camps? What are you talking about?!

  171. So why all the hullaballoo about sending some Arab Muslim back to an Arab Muslim nation to face Arab Muslim justice?

    it has nothing to do with race or religion is why. It has to do with guilty or innocent. It has to do with the fact that if it can happen to an innocent muslim it can happen to anyone.

    You automatically associate terrorism with muslims and therefor everything that happens to them will only happen to muslims. You apparently are unable to expand that concept out to other races and religions and into a broader category of innocent before proven guilty….

    which is a shame

  172. Bilgeman says:

    DonHussein:
    “He was part of the group that thought de-baathification was the right thing to do when it wasn’t. ”

    So he was working on the model of post-war Germany.

    Is it “evil” to be mistaken?

    And I’d advance the novel idea that it wasn’t a mistake, given our stated policy aim to bring a democratic process to Iraq.

    Liberals like to throw the term “Fascist” about pretty indiscriminately, but like a lot of terms Libs overuse, they never apply it correctly even when a perfect example is in front of their faces.

    The Ba’athists are Fascists, and that is incompatible with a democratic process. So to leave them in control of the mechanisms of governance would have aborted our stated post-war goal for the Iraqi people, see?

    “No, because he went to war with the “army he had” he didn’t listen to experts”

    WHAT experts? FFS, man! I think the only “experts” you’d have approved of would have been those who counseled Rummy to surrender immediately before the war even started.

    And he was, perhaps, supposed to go to war with the army that he DIDN’T have?
    That doesn’t even make sense…and neither do your quibbles.

    “he allowed way more people to die then needed to and didn’t properly equip his men.”

    He was Secretary of Defense…not God.
    There IS a difference, in case you didn’t realize it.

    “he had no exit plan either”

    So…will you be at the rally protesting to bring the troops home from Puerto Rico?

    The Spanish American War has been over since 1898…what grim milestone have we reached in US casualties resulting from our illegal imperialist occupation of that island?

    I heard two sailors were killed in a car wreck just there last week…

  173. trd?

    >>Line Item veto

    really? Clinton did that? I don’t think there is such a thing. You either veto the whole thing, or sign the whole thing.

    do you know history?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_Item_Veto_Act_of_1996

  174. Ein Volk, Ein Reich Ein Obama says:

    @157 Donhusseinsquishviti // Mar 8, 2009 at 8:20 pm

    “Ein Volk?

    Give me a few example of Obama’s Fascism”

    Oh gawd, where to start?
    Here’s SEVERAL examples of his extremist proclivities and leanings:

    He sat in a church for over 20 years listening to the sermons of a rabid moonbat who “god-damned” America and railed against “whitey” and Jews.

    He launched his career from the home of two REAL domestic terrorists; (take note, jason) William Ayers and Bernadine Dorhn.

    He wants to forcibly take money from those who earn and give it to those who do not.

    His campaign hacks went after a private citizen (Joe Wurzenbacher) who dared to confront Obama’s ‘spread the wealth’ ideology.

    He created a “truth squad” to intimidate anyone who questioned his affliation with ACORN thugs.

    He recently assembled a group of hand-selected insiders to pressure the inspector general from conducting internal investigations not approved by the White House.

    You may have gotten the socialist dictator you always wanted, but don’t expect the rest of us to follow suit.

  175. this stuff is amusing

    Then why is it STILL the law of the land in Obamerica?

    He passed the Stimulus Bill lickety-split, didn’t he?

    Why is Guantanamo STILL open?

    Why are we STILL in Iraq?

    Why are there STILL earmarks in the Stimulus and the Budget bills?

    Are you STILL “Hoping” for “Change”?

    Do you know what the word “chump” means?

    don’t we still have till like September until a president is responsible for his actions?

    last time I checked it was only 45 or so days in. Under Bush’s watch the market went down like half. Under Obama only like 700 or so….

  176. Bilgeman says:

    DonHussein:
    “It has to do with guilty or innocent. It has to do with the fact that if it can happen to an innocent muslim it can happen to anyone.”

    Right…guilty or innocent. So if the guy has done nothing wrong, he should have no qualms whatsoever about going to stand trial in the nation where he is wanted, right?

    It’s “Community-based Policing” on the macro level.

    You ARE for “Community-based Policing” right?

    “You automatically associate terrorism with muslims ”

    Don’t make assumptions. Your own mind is manifestly defective, so don’t think that you can even begin to read mine.

    “You apparently are unable to expand that concept out to other races and religions and into a broader category of innocent before proven guilty….”

    Which statement is a perfect example of the defective mentality that results in Grandmotherly aged women from Minnesota being wanded by TSA and retired Marine Corps Medal of Honor winners being barred from boarding an airplane with their Medal of Honor to give a speech at the US Naval Academy,(google Joe Foss at Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport).

  177. Army Vet says:

    Donhusseinsquishviti // Mar 8, 2009 at 8:29 pm

    @Donhussein

    Yeah, she even ‘staged’ the whole ambush and capture thing. She also staged the part where her best freind died during the fire fight. And the Spec Ops who rescued her ‘staged’ the event just to give moonbat McKinney and like-mided asshats like you another conspiracy to chew on.

    Take your meds.

  178. TRD says:

    Don Hussein,

    I knew that there was a short-lived attempt to introduce line-item veto but I did not know Clinton actually managed to use it on a couple of occasions.

  179. TRD says:

    By the way, I did not know that constitution expressly prohibits the President from releasing a statement expressing his views while signing a bill. That fascist Bush!

  180. Bilgeman says:

    Ah…well, this was a handy little urinal of a blog.

    But I really must be on the road to Atlantic City, so, since I’ve anointed sundry Delaware Liberals with my urine, I’ll just flick a Winston butt in the bowl to give y’all something to chew on.

    And I’m off to the craps tables…

  181. Right…guilty or innocent. So if the guy has done nothing wrong, he should have no qualms whatsoever about going to stand trial in the nation where he is wanted, right?

    rightttttt, says the white guy

    stand trial…oh that’s rich. Or do you mean military tribunal? Or do you mean being 14 years old and held in prison for 8 years and then being released with no charges?

  182. army vet,

    watch the video…

  183. cassandra_m says:

    And the Keyboard Kommandos are still making stuff up again. No one cares if you dissent as in threaten to leave the country. We do care if you decide to shoot liberals — as in the guy from Tennessee or Florida recently. Or the Marine from Niewert’s post who was just indicted. Or the many of the Glen Beck forum writers plotting secession and armed resistance.

    Protest all you want. The line is drawn at threatening bodily harm and treason. Which I guess I need to explain to most of you is the secession part. All other attempts to frame what anyone here has written as somehow claiming that peaceful dissent is somehow wrong is your usual dishonesty and a big part of why you whackos are out of power. If you can’t even be honest with yourselves, you cannot expect anyone to believe you.

    But don’t leave the country — what would the US be like if you all stopped flipping burgers at one time? Yeah, we’d all be thinner — but think of your obligations to those franchise holders! You’ll just be contributing to the illegal immigrant problem if you all leave your burger and fries stations…..

  184. They don’t have to leave, we are all going to be communists soon and we all know those guys don’t eat well.

  185. Independent says:

    So cassandra m, you finally speak up, and that’s the best you can do — some doubletalk and some more playground insults?

    The reason people on this thread are talking about peaceful protest is that’s all they are interested in. Let me repeat it for you: only mentally unbalanced lunatics are talking about armed revolution. And there are at least as many mentally unbalanced lunatics on the left as on the right.

    And wow, cassandra, flipping burgers? Is that what passes for witty in your world? So sad and lame.

  186. Bob Owens says:

    Sorry I’m late to the party everyone. I was so busy during the last eight years of the dictatorship pushing people into ovens that I’m still not caught up with all the paperwork.

    Funny thing, though… work isn’t slacking off, at all.

    It seems that President Obama has the same policies on renditions as Bush, the same policies of holding terrorists without trials as Bush, and the same ideas about what constitutes wiretapping as Bush.

    As a matter of fact, I’ve got quite a bit of time to contemplate things as the ovens warm up to operating temperature. To be honest, just looking at the security policies enacted or adapted by the administration thus far, our young President has more shared policies with the old administration than even McCain did. I guess it’s the difference between pandering for votes and then actually having to do the job. Isn’t that a hoot?

    If anything, Obama has a far more expansive idea about what the Executive branch should control, considering how he wants to rip the census from the Commerce Department so that Rahm can oversea it in the Oval Office (which is why Judd Gregg turned down the job). What he wants to do to the economy is so radical that poor Timmy Geithner can’t find anyone who will work for him, for fear of being linked to policies they are pretty sure are going to lead to the biggest economic collapse in our nation’s history. He’s lost what, two or three people this week alone?

    As for Dave Niewert’s rants on black helicopters and military-filled militias… well, we’ve been hearing that pretty much the entire time he’s been blogging, haven’t we?

    I’m not precisely sure what his deeper issue is, but I’m going to go out on a limb and guess he got beat up a lot in preschool by some punk kid with a GI JOE tee shirt. It’s obvious he never forgave her, and his relationship with people wearing camo just went downhill from there. Poor Dave.

    In a lot of ways, his rhetoric meant to confound and inspire the gullible reminds me of that of a guy who used to post on IndyMedia named Andrew Mickel.

    Does anyone remember what Andrew wrote? Sure you do:

    “Hello Everyone, my name’s Andy. I killed a Police Officer in Red Bluff, California in a motion to bring attention to, and halt, the police-state tactics that have come to be used throughout our country. Now I’m coming forward, to explain that this killing was also an action against corporate irresponsibility.”

    Yeah… Andrew’s on death row and his rhetoric is actually a step DOWN from that of the left-wing liberal regulars here. But worry about the right-leaning crazies, mmm-kay?

    And speaking of deranged militias, did you see where that bunch of ACORN brownshirts broke into someone’s home in Baltimore to “take it back” for the violent convicted felon? Oh, yeah, bad idea. They got arrested. Luckily the legitimate homeowner wasn’t home and nobody got hurt.

    Funny, though, how all true fascists love the sound of breaking glass.

    Well, I’d write more but I’ve got to get back to the ovens. We’re still working on a backlog and have Micheal Moore due in tomorrow.

    I’m thinking we’re going to need a few more burners and a lot more gas…

  187. Geezer says:

    Reading these comments makes me glad I voted for Obama. There’s nothing I enjoy more than right-wingers unhinged.

    Well done, Jason.

  188. cassandra_m says:

    The reason people on this thread are talking about peaceful protest is that’s all they are interested in. Let me repeat it for you: only mentally unbalanced lunatics are talking about armed revolution. And there are at least as many mentally unbalanced lunatics on the left as on the right.

    I’ve been speaking up. Do follow along, OK? I can’t be in here non-stop, I’ve got real work to get done before the day starts tomorrow.

    The difference being, of course, that the unbalanced lunatics on the left are not shooting people and leaving manifestos that the wingnuts made me do it. The difference being, of course, that the lunatics on the left made pie in the sky plans to peacefully leave for Canada or Paris — they didn’t hang out on Glen Beck’s discussion boards plotting treason and mayhem on the rest of us.

    The problem that you are working at running away from is that the basic rhetoric of wingnuts is that of violence. A thing that you can begin to see in the way that you all jumped in this thread (first up calling Jason unhinged after starting down the Revisionist Highway) and is certainly present in a number of posts that went to moderation.

    You want people to think that you are into peaceful dissent? Then put the manners your mom taught you on display — until given reason not to. And — probably most importantly — make sure your guys are loud and clear about denouncing the violence coming from your side.

  189. pandora says:

    Independent, as I read through this thread it’s obvious you’re claiming to be the voice of reasoned debate. Fine. I’d suggest that if you want to be viewed that way you change the company you keep.

    Sorry I wasn’t available at the height of this post. Perhaps, next time, you guys could forward us the email (or whatever call to arms) you received which directed you here and we’ll make sure we’re available.

  190. Randy Rager says:

    Nice one, Mr. Owens.

    Someone needs to fetch another ball, cause that one’s over the fence and gone.

  191. beb says:

    I’m literally crawling through the interweb tubes so I can literally crawl out at the home of this site and repair the improper use of the word “literally”.

    Literally.

  192. Mars vs Hollywood says:

    The difference being, of course, that the lunatics on the left made pie in the sky plans to peacefully leave for Canada or Paris

    Well, except the ones that were producing fetishistic novels and movies about assassinating people they disagreed with. Or physically assaulting military recruiters visiting campuses.

    Or even the ones that attended the “Insurgency Solidarity March” they held in San Francisco.

    You’re trying to make Independent answer for people he (or she) has never met and has no control over, because you’re not used to having someone disagree with you.

  193. a. price says:

    63 million votes. 68% approval rating. You dont like the president? fine. but don’t pretend you are a part of some huge overwhelming silent majority. you are in fact a small group of people… loud possibly violent people, but small.

  194. Independent says:

    Actually, cassandra m, your comments before #187 were mostly just insults and telling people to shut up.

    “The difference being, of course, that the lunatics on the left made pie in the sky plans to peacefully leave for Canada or Paris…”

    See Bob Owens’ post, #190. What did you do to denounce that at the time? Can you show me how you’ve been “loud and clear” to denounce those on the left that espouse violence and/or government overthrow, including extremest members of Earth First, PETA, ANSWER, etc?

    “The problem that you are working at running away from is that the basic rhetoric of wingnuts is that of violence.”

    You are so casual with your use of insults that I don’t know what you mean by this. Are you saying that the basic rhetoric of conservatives is that of violence? Or are you saying that the basic rhetoric of some tiny extremist element on the right wing is that of violence? The former is unsubstantiated and ridiculous; the latter is of course true by definition.

    “A thing that you can begin to see in the way that you all jumped in this thread (first up calling Jason unhinged after starting down the Revisionist Highway) …”

    Many of the rebuttals to Jason were for his “wiping his ass with the constitution” comment, which is at least a little unhinged itself, and making fun of his misusing the word “literally.” I don’t think anyone on this thread was defending or advocating violence.

    “…put the manners your mom taught you on display — until given reason not to.”

    You’re going to lecture me on manners, now? Really? Your first post on this thread was to say that people who disagreed with you had a “monopoly on stupid” and belonged on the “short bus.” Way to be the bigger person and set the tone for a reasoned debate. Maybe you don’t want a reasoned debate, just an echo chamber of your own opinions:

    “Bush wiped his ass with the constitution!”
    “I know!”
    “That’s so true!”
    “Good point!”
    “You are so clever!”
    “No, YOU are so clever for agreeing with me!”
    “Thanks!”
    “No, thank YOU!”

    If that’s what you want, maybe you should password-protect the website so that you won’t be challenged by having to defend your opinions from people who have more diverse points of view.

  195. Independent says:

    pandora:

    What kind of company do you think I keep?

  196. pandora says:

    Well, Independent, since you arrived with the swarm that was directed here I would call them the company you keep. The Obama birth certificate crowd, the we want a divorce from America crowd, the if you live in a country with socialized health care and are denied a procedure you are forbidden for paying for the procedure yourself crowd, and the disgusting comments in moderation crowd.

    This is the group you arrived with. Now, if you’d like to distance yourself from this nonsense, I’m all ears.

  197. Von Cracker says:

    I haven’t seen such amateurish attempts at clever humor since open-mic night at the Cabaret on 12th and Jefferson.

    You killed their faux rage, Jason. Good job!

    Again for the challenged:

    Ranting and raving about the gov’t in the streets, on the air, though the tubes = Dissent.

    Ranting and raving about overthrowing the gov’t in the streets, on the air, though the tubes = Sedition.

    Geesh – no wonder repubs consistently vote against their economic interests! Gullible.

  198. jaafar says:

    “Wingnut Dissent.” We’re all talking about it, and how UGLY it is, and trotting out our prejudices and other pre-baked ideas, but:

    “Wingnut Dissent” is actually taking place in public right now, all over the country. They are calling themselves “Tea Parties.”

    For the first time in recent memory, CONSERVATIVES are holding public protests.

    Violence? No. Machine-guns? No. Calls for revolution? No.

    Take a look, folks. There are no exhibitionistic female lunatics who bare their ancient, withered dugs. What you can see are US citizens in peaceful assembly, gathered to express dissent. And their signs are even spelled correctly!

    The contrast between the Tea Parties and the Code Pink/Cindy Sheehan antics is simply self-evident.

    “Don’t spread my wealth, spread my work ethic!” Have you ever THOUGHT about that? That the “filthy rich” making more than $250,000 per year are…dentists? How can you possibly think that a DENTIST is “exploiting the poor working slobs?” He’s just working hard and fixing teeth. If you want a salary that big, then be a dentist yourself. Or a doctor. Or a lawyer. Or a web-site designer. Or an accountant.

    But don’t make the Obama boo-boo of thinking that these people are the “rich.” No, no, no. The truly rich people don’t have to work, and you may never catch sight of them in your entire life. They don’t fly on your airplanes, and they don’t play on your golf-courses.

    We’re all in this together. If you want your dentist to close his shop three days a week, try confiscatory taxation. That’ll work well.

  199. jaafar says:

    “Now, if you’d like to distance yourself from this nonsense, I’m all ears.”

    I’m getting confused here. Which “nonsense” are we talking about?

    1. The Obama nirth certificate — clearly nonsense.

    2. “The we want a divorce from America crowd” — well, is it nonsense to believe such people exist, or what? Is it nonsense to say to yourself: “If government is going to take 95% of my earnings, I’m leaving?” Have you ever actually LISTENED to the Beatles song, “Taxman?” (“It’s one for you and nineteen for me!”)
    —I’m an American citizen, born and raised, but I never “married” America. I currently live in another country, but not because of economics. Is that my right, or is it not? (Actually, I don’t give a damn what you answer. It’s my right as a human being, and I have already exercised that right.)

    3. “if you live in a country with socialized health care and are denied a procedure you are forbidden for paying for the procedure yourself crowd”
    — well, this is not nonsense, this is fact. For example, when Canada went for government-supplied medicine, the country banned all private doctors outside the new system. Result: Canadians come to (guess where) for urgent treatment. In England and Sweden, it is routine for government bureaucrats to vote against certain drugs as “too expensive” for their health bureaucracy, and then additionally make it illegal for anyone else to buy them privately, because it might stir up “class envy.”

    I don’t pay your rent. I don’t make your car payments for you. I don’t buy your groceries. I don’t pay for your kids. Why in heaven’s name should I pay your doctor bill, or your mortgage, unless you have committed to the life of a parasite?

  200. Jaafar,

    your kind love to spew out all that is wrong with other countries programs as if we would adopt the same issues. You also like to forget the issues that we have with the current system we have and how it is far from ideal.

    What you and most of the other people like you seem to forget is that when you build a program you tend to try to avoid the GLARING problems that other programs have.

    Allow your brain to digest an analogy.

    Let’s say Canada built the Pinto. You know, that car that blew up when hit from behind.

    Suppose America LOVED that concept of a 4 wheeled gas powered engine that was able to transport people from point a to point b efficiently at high rates of speed.

    Do you think America, knowing that the car bursts into flames when hit from behind would build the exact same FUCKING CAR?

    get a clue, stop with acting ignorant and stop being myopic in thinking that overnight we are going to adopt the EXACT same problems other countries have with their health care. Also stop forgetting the incredible problems we have with our current system

  201. anon says:

    It was the Pinto, not the Gremlin. Get ready for a whole slew of weenies pointing out that fact instead of addressing the point of your analogy.

  202. cassandra m says:

    to denounce those on the left that espouse violence and/or government overthrow, including extremest members of Earth First, PETA, ANSWER, etc?

    Way to change the goalposts. While the majority of the left certainly do denounce the violence of these groups, these groups don’t even have much of a seat at the table on the left. Your violent extremist members are a core bit of the base. And they have champions like Glen Beck and Mike Savage and Rush Limbaugh. You don’t see any of these extreme left groups being championed by mainstream liberal groups or pundits.

    Are you saying that the basic rhetoric of conservatives is that of violence?

    Yes. Of your movement conservative types, certainly. There are others who clearly do not. They are the minority in the core part of your party at this point. cf Glen Beck. And of course, the violence you guys routinely do to the truth.

    You’re going to lecture me on manners, now? Really?

    Absolutely. You get the respect you earn, and few if any of your compatriots here came here for reasoned discourse in the first place. When you go to someone else’s house and act like a cretinous slob you should not be at all surprised when you get treated that way. Perhaps you’ve been a bit better than the rest of your compatriots here, but since you’ve decided to defend this, I presume that you are an endorser of this stupid behavior.

  203. a. price says:

    “For the first time in recent memory, CONSERVATIVES are holding public protests.

    Violence? No. Machine-guns? No. Calls for revolution? No.”

    so Sean Hannity, a “man” with multiple public forums who is held in conservative circles as one of the leading voices in conservatism having a poll on his web site, not as to decide IF to have a violent revolt, but WHAT KIND WE SHOULD HAVE.. doesn’t count as a call for violence?

    Glenn Beck, with the camera fixed on his insane hate-filled eyes telling us to prepare for the collapse of the nation on HIS national TV show isn’t fear mongering?

    wake up man. you may not be a violent retard, but there sure are a lot of em who watch Fixed News

  204. anon says:

    The extreme left aren’t even Democrats. They hate both parties. Whereas the extreme right are Republicans or water-carriers for Republicans.

  205. liz says:

    No Anon, the Party of No do not refer to themselves as republicans, but conservatives. I believe there is a party for the wing nuts that fits your beliefs…its called the Nazi Party…join up now. Every time Sham Hannity, and Rush the drug addict open their mouths, the hate groups grow larger, thats the white supremacists, KKK and the Nazi Party.

    The left is saying, “we want the constitution made whole again”, that is the document that represents all parties. Just get rid of the Patriot Act, and restore Habeus Corpus, end renditions, and every other right wing fascist law Bush and his extreme party loyals overturned.

    The democratic party is supposed to be a big tent party, I for one do not agree with either of the two parties, because both do not represent the Consitution, and both have turned this country into a “corportacracy”. There is no “extreme left in America”, there are few real progressives, there are many who identify themselves as liberal. I have never maintained my beliefs to be liberal. Liberals have never shown me they have the courage of their convictions, do not act on them, just talk, talk, talk.

  206. liz says:

    Casandra: are you saying that Answer is a violent movement. Your completely nuts on that one. Answer is made up of anti war, peace groups, quakers and others who actually act on their beliefs to get some peace in the world, and have the courage to call out the right wing neo con democrats and republicans on their support for “corporatacracy”.

  207. liz says:

    Jaafar: Your depiction of universal health care is simply a lie and distortion. We do not want the universal health plan of Canada or England.

    We want the health care plan of France, Italy and some other countries. Are you aware because they have single payer system, and want to improve the health care the European Union has taken on its own chemical industry. They want all toxic chemicals taken out of drugs, chemicals known to cause cancer and other debilitating diseases. There was a conference in Brussels about this issue. The Chemical industry of the US went there and tried to do what they do here, bribe those at the conference to vote against the proposed change. It didnt work, because the politicans are not dependent on corporations who fill their campaign coffers to destroy any chance of changing the health care system.

    What we want is a universal plan where you choose your doctor, your place of care and you and your doctor decide treatment, not some beancounter in the for profit health care system who consistently over rules your doctor and his course of treatment. We want to rid ourselves of the for profit system that cherry picks the most healthy, charges them outrageous amounts, cuz they can. This leaves those with out health care, the poor and the working class who cant afford it to use emergency rooms as a doctor, running up the costs.

    Guess you didnt see the movie Sicko, where ex patriots in France applauded their health care system and made comparisons to the US.

    There is a reason why the majority of doctors, nurses and health care providers have an organization PNHP.org, the fastest growing organization in the medical field in the country.

    Obama has filled his Health Care group with the largest insurance, big pharma, Chamber of commerce to make sure their lobbyists keep true universal health care from even being discussed. Obama is in the pockets of the “chamber” as is Congress, Senators who have the brinks trucks roll up every election cycle making sure their campaigns are filled with money…assuring the for profit system remains.

    Obamas plan is the Mitt Romney plan for Massachusetts. Even Romney stated the Mass plan wouldnt work for the US. Check out how Mass Plan is now bankrupting their state. You cant have both systems. We need one system a real universal system that rids us of the for profit motive, delivering only basic care at high profits.

  208. jaafar says:

    “We need one system a real universal system that rids us of the for profit motive, delivering only basic care at high profits.”

    Wow. Because Obama is going to do it, he’s going to beat the rest of the world at squaring the circle.

    Is the left “reality-based?” If so, consider these real facts.

    Way back in WW II, FDR froze prices and wages. Companies still wanted to hire the best, so they got Congress to agree on a “sneaky.” The “sneaky” allowed employers (those evil, evil people) to offer health insurance to their employees (those wonderful guys) FREE OF TAXATION.

    Well, the USA has been running on that “sneaky” for about sixty years. And that “sneaky” has resulted in our having two distinct classes of Americans: those with “free” health insurance from their employers, and those without such insurance.

    Am I right so far, or wrong?

    The CLASS A people (who work for fairly large companies) get their health insurance for free, and it’s usually pretty good health insurance. I once worked for IBM, and they had a good plan. It didn’t cost me a penny. Not only that, but as a member of a “group,” I got the insurance without going near a doctor, or a physical exam. Not even a questionnaire.

    The CLASS B people are screwed, under this system. They have to go out on the open market and try to buy health insurance out of their own, net, after-tax income. As individuals, they are regarded with suspicion. They have to take physical exams. They are thoroughly questioned. (“Do you smoke?” “Do you have HIV?”) And they wind up paying pretty healthy sums, maybe $100-$200 per month or more.

    Now, along comes someone (not Obama, but ANYONE) who proposes national health insurance, and the result is immediate trouble. What everyone understands is that, if the US offers “free” health insurance to everyone, then corporations will simply stop offering their own “free” health insurance. Put in simple terms: the CLASS A people lose. But I think they may be as much as 60 percent of the population. They aren’t willing (not one little bit) to give up their “free” employer-provided health insurance for some crap insurance from the US government.

    Well, we could always try my own solution: go back and eliminate the original injustice. Get rid of that “sneaky” and make employer-provided health insurance into fully taxable income. That would level the playing field, at least.

    Chance of passage?

    The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.

  209. Independent says:

    cassandra m: When I go to your house and you act like a cretinous slob towards all of your guests, it makes me think that you’d rather argue with a caricature than with the actual conservatives, independents, and libertarians that oppose many of the Democratic policies.

  210. Randy Rager says:

    Now jaafar, let’s not introduce facts into the discussion, such as the discussion has been so far, which isn’t anything to impress a 7th grade debate club, to be honest.

    Lefties aren’t interested in facts, or history, or anything else remotely associated with being an adult.

    So let’s focus on how the Leftwingnuts are going to FEEL about the dollar losing 90% of it’s value over the next four years due to massive Treasury mismanagement by noted tax cheat Geithner. Let’s discuss how it’s going to FEEL to live in a country with 30% unemployment caused by Obama’s ridiculously hate filled budget practically designed to destroy free enterprise and the small businessman.

    Let’s talk about how his ridiculous carbon cap and trade system is going cost even the lowest income family an additional $700-1100 next year, and how it will FEEL to absorb that extra expense when you can’t even afford some Ramen noodles for dinner.

    Let’s try to relate to the ignorant little college age Marxist shits, shall we?

  211. pandora says:

    First, Jaafar, you must have worked at IBM a long time ago. Big companies aren’t giving their employees health insurance for free anymore. Second, the idea that individual insurance costs $100 – $200 a month is not reality based, not even close.

  212. Independent says:

    cassandra m: “these groups don’t even have much of a seat at the table on the left. ”

    PETA is is not supported by the left? Come on. And International ANSWER, a communist group that advocates the overthrow of the American free enterprise system, takes the lead at almost every leftist cause and march.

    “And of course, the violence you guys routinely do to the truth.”

    Talk about changing the goalposts…

  213. Randy Rager says:

    Yeah, pandora, $100-200 a month is a bit low.

    And it was never free, any more than that other %7.5 of your income to FICA is paid by your employer. You’re paying 15%, no matter what your pay stub says. You’re also paying for your insurance, no matter what your employer promises, and you’ll still be paying for your healthcare, no matter what Obama promises.

    It’ll just be more expensive now that government is involved.

    Sheesh, kids these days. I could find more economic literacy in a box of Cheerios.

  214. Von Cracker says:

    Wow, that’s a stretch, Indy!

    I didn’t know advocating animal rights (even at the extreme) was a partisan issue…but if stereotyping helps yer wittle mind cope, so be it.

  215. Dotar Sojat says:

    I keep seeing derisive references to “going John Galt.” Here’s what we really mean by it. We’re going to work less (and be less productive) because after the new Obatax and the “deduction reductions”, the marginal return on our additional labor will not be worth the effort to us. We will still make good money, because we generally work a lot now, a lot more than 40 hours a week, but we’re not going to keep doing it for the reduced return. Of course, we will reduce our spending, and those who live by our spending will lose out, but they (and, I suspect, many of you) will get a “tax cut” check to make up for it. We don’t have a moral or patriotic duty to work more, in order to pay more taxes than we do now. I’ll play golf more on weekends instead of working. I’ll spend more time at home in the evenings instead of working. I’ll still pay my mortgage, still send my kids to college, but I’ll fly below the Obatax level. Who cares about those who might have benefitted from or been employed by my additional work? You honyocks obviously don’t.

  216. did this guy just say we ignore facts then say this?

    .So let’s focus on how the Leftwingnuts are going to FEEL about the dollar losing 90% of it’s value over the next four years due to massive Treasury mismanagement by noted tax cheat Geithner.

    Didn’t the dollar just go UP today?

    hmmm, strange…must be a FACT you didn’t anticipate when you were spouting your bullshit

  217. jason330 says:

    Dotar,

    Let me make sure I have this right. You are going to make less than $250,000 this year to keep from being dinged by the new tax rates?

    Well more power to you and I’m sure your children will enjoy the uptick in face time.

  218. Von Cracker says:

    WTF? Isn’t the Obatax rate the same as the RaygunTax, the GHWBTAX?

    You’re lucky it’s not the IkeTax!

    So, all you richeese are gonna take your ball and go home, huh? Whatever.

    OOOOHH, my tax rate’s going up by 5%! OMGZ! I’m gonna quit now and I’m not gonna do start-ups anymorz! That’ll show the commie libtards! LOL! pathetic.

  219. cassandra_m says:

    Indy, the only way you can make that stretch about PETA and ANSWER is to — you know — lie about it. Mainstream Dem groups (heck, neither PETA ot ANSWER get much respect over at the Daily Kos, much less at DNC central) don’t have much to do with them. ANSWER in particular has many Green and other fringe party members as their leadership. And certainly no mainstream Dem pundit is championing what these guys do every day.

    And the key bit about respect is that it was you and your cretinous cohorts who came here talking trash based on some bit of idiocy Reynolds was pushing yesterday. You would have been treated with respect if you came here with it. And we are certainly not going treat you better than you were prepared to treat us. If we had jumped over to your place talking trash like that above, you wouldn’t have treated us very well either.

    And we’re not going to be tolerant of that stupidity here, no matter how much you yell.

  220. Von Cracker says:

    Oh, and yes….I love that Galt and the book he rode on is purely FICTION, but the far-right treats it as a test case….sorta like Red Dawn!

  221. jason330 says:

    It is funny. I hope the country can endure the sudden drop off in magnetic car ribbon sales.

  222. pandora says:

    Randy, you’re confusing me. At the beginning of your post you’re agreeing with my figures, then, at the end, your mocking my economic literacy. Which is it?

  223. Von Cracker says:

    Think about the swamp mouse herders, Jason!

  224. Rick says:

    a. Price

    Can you please post a link or something about that Hannity poll he had on his website… I cannot find it.

    Thanks.

  225. cassandra_m says:

    I love that Galt and the book he rode on is purely FICTION

    And so is Dotar’s Tall Tale.

  226. anon says:

    If Dotar wants to earn $249k – he has the rest of the year to come up with about $200K.

  227. Dorian Gray says:

    Economic growth was high in the Clinton years and Obama plan returns to the same tax levels. (35% to 39.5 something like that). It just sensationalism.

    The RESET of taxes back to PREVIOUS levels will NOT hinder innovation…

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/03/taxes-and-entre.html

  228. Independent says:

    cassandra m: “And the key bit about respect is that it was you and your cretinous cohorts who came here talking trash based on some bit of idiocy Reynolds was pushing yesterday. You would have been treated with respect if you came here with it. ”

    I came here looking to learn something from people who have a different perspective, and maybe to have a little reasonable debate. But obviously you’d rather lump everyone who disagrees with you into a group and attack them as “cretins.”

    There were some interesting posts on this thread, but I’m sorry that I wasted my time talking to you.

  229. anon says:

    If we went back to the Reagan tax rates these dopes would head straight to the fainting couch.

  230. cassandra_m says:

    But obviously you’d rather lump everyone who disagrees with you into a group and attack them as “cretins.”

    And you were calling who “cretinous slobs” in post 216?

    Really, if you don’t like this stuff then don’t show up here tossing it around.

  231. pandora says:

    Going Galt is nothing more than an idle threat. Besides, if those threatening this action actually followed through they would either a) lose their jobs by cutting their “value”, or b) create a demand in their field that would soon be filled by someone with an entrepreneurial spirit.

    Gotta love capitalism!

  232. Dotar Sojat says:

    Actually, its true. Took me 30 years starting at $387 a month, 3 degrees, 3 student loans, and a lot more than 4o hours a week, and a lot less bitching about life’s circumstances (and other peoples’ success) than I see here. If I earned a million a rear, I wouldn’t much care, because the marginal tax wouldn’t hurt that much, and I would already be working my butt off. But folks at my income level can make a rational choice not to work more for 40 cents on the dollar. The evil upper middle class arent’ trust babies; they are people who work hard for long hours, and are where they are because of their own labor, not inherited wealth. They are not obligated to support you any more than they do now. Anon is just about right. And Red Dawn is a cheesy movie. And the idea that I’m “rich” is theh hoot of the day.

  233. Dotar Sojat says:

    that’s “year”

  234. redwaterlily says:

    “Lefties aren’t interested in facts, or history, or anything else remotely associated with being an adult.”

    This is the most funny thing I have read today.

  235. pandora says:

    Actually, the funniest was Dotar Sojat’s typo!

  236. jaafar says:

    “First, Jaafar, you must have worked at IBM a long time ago. Big companies aren’t giving their employees health insurance for free anymore. Second, the idea that individual insurance costs $100 – $200 a month is not reality based, not even close.”

    Yes. I worked for IBM twenty years ago. And I don’t have health insurance, so I don’t know what it costs.

    And your point was what?

    There are still CLASS A and CLASS B citizens in the U.S.

  237. pandora says:

    My point is that there’s not as much light between Class A and Class B as your faulty data suggested.

  238. jaafar says:

    “Let me make sure I have this right. You are going to make less than $250,000 this year to keep from being dinged by the new tax rates?”

    Yes, Jason, you understood perfectly. But I’m not sure that you understand that this will result in your dentist closing his doors three days a week. You seem to have this idea that $250,000 a year is an awesome income. Well, begin by subtracting $100,000 for current (BushHitler) taxes.

    More than that:

    THE POOR DOCTOR (a true story)

    Dr. X works in Portland. He has a clinic and he works at the local hospital. He usually puts in 60 or 70 hours a week. From both jobs, he takes home about $140,000 a year. OK?

    Now, subtract $30,000 a year for malpractice insurance. Remainder: $110,000.

    Rent on his clinic: $25,000. His secretary: $25,000. Subtract another $50,000. Remainder: $60,000.

    Federal and state taxes: $20,000. Remainder: $40,000.

    This man makes less than a UAW stooge. He also works a lot harder. He also put a lot more time and investment into his career.

    Conclusion: medicine is for suckers.

    Medical care in 21st century will be like medical care in the UK: delivered by immigrant doctors.

  239. Dotar Sojat says:

    Glad you liked it. Always beena bad typist. Actually , Pandora, we can work less. Not everybody sits at a desk working for a boss; lose the stereotype. Some of us even employ other people. An entrepreneur only takes risks if the reward is worth it. One can work extra for a bonus, or not. Many will chose not to take the incremental risk or work the additional hours. You wanna step up? Nothing is stopping you. Any of you can, or could have, reached the same income level. It just takes a lot of study and a lot of hard work. You can start with nothing and do it. Or you can punt, whine and cash your tax cut check. Up to you.

  240. jaafar says:

    Pandora: “Going Galt is nothing more than an idle threat.” So you say.

    I’m already gone.

  241. jaafar says:

    Pandora: “My point is that there’s not as much light between Class A and Class B as your faulty data suggested.”

    Then why are they fighting about this very point in Washington right NOW?

  242. Von Cracker says:

    Why is a UAW member a stooge?

    A stooge may be the water-carrier for the oh-so-victimized wealthy.

    Let me tell YOU a (really) TRUE story. A MD friend of mine once told me he bought a Porsche SUV so he could save 30k on his taxes! It fell into a loophole created under the guise of a farm-equipment (heavy machinery) exemption, which I believe the loophole is now closed, due to massive misuse of the tax law.

    This is only one of many incognito gifts given to the wealthy through the tax code…let’s not even get started on the capital gains/dividend work-a-round against the income tax!

  243. pandora says:

    This is becoming tiresome, jaafar. The only downside I can see to going Galt is the extra blogging hours it will afford.

    Okay, let’s try again. The reason health care is (seriously) on the table now is because Class A is taking a financial hit (more every year) – and not only Class A, but business as well. Funny, how things rise in priority depending on who is affected.

  244. cassandra_m says:

    medicine is for suckers.

    That doctor’s practice is taking tax deductions on many of those expense items. So his income will certainly be higher than the 40K.

    Any of you can, or could have, reached the same income level.

    Notice how he presumes that there is no one here who has worked hard for a bunch of degrees and a risky business. Which is how we know he is still living in fiction.

  245. jaafar says:

    Pandora: “This is becoming tiresome, jaafar.”

    Well, thinking is hard work.

  246. pandora says:

    Educating, jaafar, I’m educating.

  247. jaafar says:

    Cassandra: “Notice how he presumes that there is no one here who has worked hard for a bunch of degrees and a risky business. Which is how we know he is still living in fiction.”

    No, that’s wrong. I tend to assume that the people here have worked for multiple degrees (all useless). That is to say: professional students. And when that dried up, it may be true that you tried to open a restaurant and failed.

    I actually KNEW one guy in San Francisco who was “in college” until the age of 45, and then was forced to get a job by his parents. So he chose to RETURN to school (nursing school) and became a nurse when he was in his fifties. Six years later, he filed for disability.

    Ya, multiple degrees. They really really make people smart! And starting stupid businesses is what those people do best.

    I don’t think ANYBODY here (on the “progressive” side) has a degree in engineering, or medicine, or dentistry.

    I hope I’m wrong. Let’s see.

    What were your “multiple degrees?”

  248. Von Cracker says:

    You guys are a trip!

    5 years from now, I really don’t think you’d be able to find a single person who gave up a chance at what they want to do all because of a 4.5% increase in earned income tax!

    If you’re so sure about the outcome, then why can’t you just tell everyone the future? That’s what you’re doing here anyway.

    Let’s see…So-and-so is about to start a business or runs one already. Projections say he’ll make 350k to 750k, but he won’t even try simply because of what now?

    The child-like reasoning spewing from the “one-day-I’ll-be-rich-so-I’ll-defend-them-even-though-the-odds-of-me-becoming-one-of-them-is-close-to-nil” crowd is cute, but inherently flawed.

    The costs of shutting down would do more harm to those who do, and their families, than the ones paying a couple more grand per year in taxes…. it just would not make economic sense.

  249. jaafar says:

    “Why is a UAW member a stooge?”

    Do I really have to explain that to you?

    I’m not quite sure why, but since childhood I have hated being judged or rated as a member of a group. I can’t even imagine asking for a raise for me and all the other people.

    Everyone talks about the “GM Bailout,” but it is really the “UAW bailout.”

  250. jaafar says:

    Von Cracker: “The child-like reasoning spewing from the “one-day-I’ll-be-rich-so-I’ll-defend-them-even-though-the-odds-of-me-becoming-one-of-them-is-close-to-nil” crowd is cute, but inherently flawed.”

    Is this your best shot?

  251. Von Cracker says:

    Oh, I get it…all union members are stooges to you.

    Collective bargaining is soooo Marxist, right?

    Are you one of those who cannot understand the differences between an economic system and a system of governance?

  252. jaafar says:

    Von Cracker: “Collective bargaining is soooo Marxist, right?”

    Wrong. Communists have always banned unions, because there is nothing outside the state.

  253. a. price says:

    rick,
    http://www.delawareliberal.net/2009/02/26/hannity-poll-asks-which-type-of-revolution-appeals/comment-page-1/

    and it was reported on multiple news programs… by having that pole on his website, Hannity supports the sentiments.

  254. jaafar says:

    Von Cracker: “Are you one of those who cannot understand the differences between an economic system and a system of governance?”

    Yes.

  255. jaafar says:

    a. rpice: “by having that pole on his website, Hannity supports the sentiments.”

    Would that have been Lech Walesa? :-)

    By the way, I too “support the sentiments!!!”

  256. cassandra_m says:

    What were your “multiple degrees?”

    All in Engineering.

    And while I’m at it — multiple progressive friends of mine have their multiple degrees in various sciences as well as math.

  257. Von Cracker says:

    That’s the Soviet view.

  258. jaafar says:

    Cassandra: “All in Engineering.”

    Smells like BS to me. Most engineers don’t capitalize the word. And, if they have multiple degrees in engineering, they will generally spell out what they were. E.g. “soil engineering,” “mechanical engineering.”

    I hope you weren’t talking about “software engineering.” That’s a totally BS degree. (I say that as a retired “software engineer” == “computer programmer.”)

  259. jaafar says:

    Ya, it’s so sad about Ph.D.’s in Physics. They are mostly unemployed, or filling gas tanks. But they did not do what I did when I began my Ph.D. I went and talked with the placement office, and discovered that there weren’t any openings for my lovely Ph.D.

    Later, working at Control Data, I saw not one but two Ph.D.’s in Philosophy coming in as new hires.

    How sad.

  260. Von Cracker says:

    My brother has a Civil Engineering degree from Georgia Tech and he’s a liberal.

  261. anonone says:

    Science (B.S.) and engineering (M.S.E). Started and run my own business (9 years).

    Your pomposity reveals your foolishness, jaafar.

  262. Dotar Sojat says:

    A 4.5% increase is the start. Factor in the proposed reductions in itemized deductions and mortgage interest deductions, toss in some increased state taxes, and the marginal return on additional income may not be worth the time and effort. No, we won’t shut down, we just won’t expand. Won’t hire. No doubt you work hard. If you chose a field that doesn’t get you where other fields get other people, ain’t my frackin’ problem. Just exactly what duty to you do I have?

  263. jaafar says:

    Von Cracker: “My brother has a Civil Engineering degree from Georgia Tech and he’s a liberal.”

    Well, that takes care of everything, doesn’t it?

    Off to bed!

    I’m glad that my pomposity reveals my foolishness. It could be worse. My foolishness could reveal my pomposity. Or my grziebie could reveal my tornthg. Anything, ANYTHING, to avoid discussion of the issues, such as The Lunatic In The White House.

  264. anonone says:

    cassandra_m has more integrity in her little finger nail than you have in your entire sad body, jaafar.

    And intelligent people don’t write utterly unsupportable bullshit like “most engineers don’t capitalize the word. And, if they have multiple degrees in engineering, they will generally spell out what they were. E.g. “soil engineering,” “mechanical engineering.”

    Show your statistics to back up that bullshit or shut the fuck up.

  265. Von Cracker says:

    And you will be replaced by someone who is willing.

    Isn’t it grand how the free market works!

  266. Von Cracker says:

    I thought the exception is the rule with you types, jaafar?

  267. pandora says:

    Jaafar, your stereotyping is insulting. And as far as switching subjects goes… look in the mirror. You’re all over the place.

  268. I’m fine with people making $250k working less. It means more people will work.

    Simple Supply and Demand.

    In fact, I applaud you comrade! working less and spreading around the wealth is just what we need in this country!

  269. cassandra_m says:

    I’m glad that my pomposity reveals my foolishness.

    Indeed — faced with a bunch of facts that don’t mesh with your oh-so-better-than-the-rest-of-you narrative, you don’t have anywhere to go. Which is pretty much what we were telling you in the first place.

  270. Dotar Sojat says:

    Somehow, if the missing work gets done, I doubt you’ll be the one doing it. Thats the work that gets done after the 50 hours a week. Aside from a 401k (fruit of my labor, don’t you know), I don’t have any wealth, just income. Wealth envy is one thing, we all have a bit of it. Income envy is just plain stupid. You kids run along; I still have a few hours of work to do. Interesting site.

  271. anon says:

    I tend to assume that the people here have worked for multiple degrees (all useless). That is to say: professional students. And when that dried up, it may be true that you tried to open a restaurant and failed.

    No, actually that would be our local conservative blogger.

  272. Randy Rager says:

    OMG! I made a four year prediction concerning inflation, and I’m wrong because the dollar went up TODAY!

    Seriously? That’s your argument? Really?

    We’ll see.

    In four years.

    Idiot.

  273. Randy Rager says:

    “This is the most funny thing I have read today.”

    English. You’re doing it wrong.

  274. liz says:

    Jaafar: you like the republican view right! Check this out. Are you aware the republican party plan for health care is to tax any employee who gets health care from their employer, the amount the employer pays for your health insurance. You will be taxed for the for profit health care your company provides you, and you will pay for the copays they have added on, and higher costs for doctors visits and prescription drugs. Taxing health care, only the repukes could have come up with such an draconian viewpoint.

  275. liz says:

    And speaking of insurance, when will Delaware liberal and other bloggers take on the dimwitted Karen Weldin Stewart. Did you see the article yesterday of her new brainstorm for Delaware.

    Absolute proof she was not only in bed with big insurance companies ( those visits to NYC, her campaign trough filling up quickly from them, well the big payoff is now being considered.

    Seems Stewart wants to change a law which states that “insurance companies must have the funds in their accounts to back up all those policy payoffs”. Weldin Stewarts brainfart will change all that. Her new decree will permit insurance saleman and corporations to sell and sell as many policies as possible, and not be REQUIRED to have the funds in their treasury to pay off claims”! Its a Countrywide (housing) scam that must be stopped right now. If Delaware the corporate state does this, how long will it take to go nationwide. These insurance companies are so smart and Stewart too dumb she know how they used her.

    You can email an attorney mitch.craine@state.de.us, and tell him how wrong this ridiculous and stupid decree would really affect all Delawareans. Didnt take Weldin Stewart long to give the biggest insurance companies the pay off, while screwing the Delaware citizens. Nice going Karen!

  276. jaafar says:

    A little dose of reality here. It may not help. The people here don’t seem to actually listen so much as react.

    Anyway, the following is not something I wrote. The author is not yet 25. But it is a general reply to all those who think that people earning “too much” should automatically (and happily) fork it over to the parasites and looters.

    ————————————

    As a business owner I feel especially strong about unions telling me what I can and can’t do… other than to abide by the law (as everyone should). I create jobs. I work hard to grow my business, so as a by product, I create even more jobs. And not just any kind of job. High-paying, high skilled, professional jobs in, which employees (obviously not all) earn 6-figure incomes. This is what makes the world go round. It’s what keeps the economy afloat.

    And if I make 10 times what the average wage-earner makes… I think it’s fair. The hard work, energy and innovation I put in is huge… so are the risks I take.. Sometimes I wonder how much easier it would be just to walk into a business, accept a fixed salary and work 8-6 and enjoy my weekends.

    People who work bloody hard to sustain and grow profitable businesses, supply services and keep people profitably employed make a massive difference to minimize the downturn. Unions don’t. I also supply services, which enable other businesses to market themselves better, increase profitability and retain or increase employees.

    I think if a union official ever came into my office and started making demands, I’d be tempted to say, “ok, fine. You’re a dickhead but I’ve made enough money. I’m shutting down and liquidating the company and you can all go find a job elsewhere.” It wouldn’t be such a bad thing. There’s so much operating capital in the business entity I would be walking away with a massive chunk of cash. I’d also make a windfall selling my clients…. or accepting ongoing commissions from other agencies for passing them over. But employees would be without their jobs.
    ———————————

    Um, this could be a case right out of “Atlas Shrugged.”

    But, so far as I can tell, the looters here only care about making their point that “the rich don’t deserve to be rich.”

    That is several light-years away from proving that YOU have a right to it.

    All those on this forum who own successful businessed, raise your hands.

    Ah, I thought so!

  277. jaafar says:

    Just by the way, the guy who sent me that e-mail works over a hundred hours a week. He has been known to get up at 5:30 AM, be at work by 6:30, work continuously through 5 AM the next day, go home, take a shower and a nap, and go right back at 8 AM for another 20-hour day.

    All those who have worked this hard, raise your hands.

    How does anyone have a right to the fruits of this man’s labor?

  278. Von Cracker says:

    Don’t forget to click your heels, jaafar! Eventually it will become true if you do!

    LOL!

  279. Von Cracker says:

    And if your boy can accomplish everything all by himself then the “fruits” are all his.

    If not, well, it’s pay to play baby.

  280. jaafar says:

    llz: “You will be taxed for the for profit health care your company provides you.”

    llz, you seem to think that operating a business for a profit is evil.

    I think you need to grow up.

    Any business that operates without profits goes bankrupt and disappears.

    The most widely known alternative, of course, is for big businesses to be owned by the government, and operate at a loss, which of course we all *cheerfully* pay as slaves of the Nanny State.

    If I’m wrong, you can just submit your plan to operate a non-profit restaurant. Or gas station. Or computer software company.

    Grow up and get used to the truth! Businesses MUST make a profit, or they go bankrupt.

    (Sorry.) DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH

  281. jaafar says:

    Von Cracker: “Don’t forget to click your heels, jaafar! Eventually it will become true if you do!”

    Is this your idea of rational discussion?

    “And if your boy can accomplish everything all by himself then the “fruits” are all his.”

    “My boy?” Get serious here. I do not even know the real name of this person. That’s because he values his privacy above all else. And one reason he values it (and has been doing so for years) is that he will probably make the A-list of “Country X’s Youngest Millionaires.” That could destroy his private life (what little of it there is), and he does not want that to happen.

    Am I mistaken in detecting some whiffs of homophobia here?

    Gosh, you leftists are such great guys. You reduce every single rational argument to simple ad hominem attacks. And you also tell people to shut the fuck up and go away.

    What a prize group you are.

  282. jaafar says:

    llz: “Jaafar: you like the republican view right! Check this out. Are you aware the republican party plan for health care is to tax any employee who gets health care from their employer, the amount the employer pays for your health insurance. You will be taxed for the for profit health care your company provides you, and you will pay for the copays they have added on, and higher costs for doctors visits and prescription drugs. Taxing health care, only the repukes could have come up with such an draconian viewpoint.”

    Well, yes, llz, you have actually understood me. I do not think that there should be two classes of Americans, the CLASS A and the CLASS B. But I think I said that quite a while ago.

    However, you are completely free to go on thinking that this is perfectly fair, and perfectly just — that some people (CLASS A) get their health insurance for “free” (note those quotations marks!), while some other people (CLASS B) have to pay for their own health insurance with aftertax dollars.

    Of course, there are always the CLASS C people, who put money in the bank against a rainy day, or a health emergency. But we are not talking about them, are we? We’re only talking about the relative advantages of various social parasites.

  283. Von Cracker says:

    No one can have a rational argument when the position, to begin with, is, well, irrational.

    Lo siento, amigo…you’ll have to play your game of non-plausible hypotheticals somewhere else.

  284. jaafar says:

    Von Cracker: “No one can have a rational argument when the position, to begin with, is, well, irrational.

    Lo siento, amigo…you’ll have to play your game of non-plausible hypotheticals somewhere else.”

    There you go again: “Shut up and go away.”

    What “position” is “irrational?”

    You know, like put up or shut up.

  285. jaafar says:

    By the way, I *love* these nut-cases who say things like, “Everything you say is crazy,” but who cannot be bothered to actually put their hard-working fingers on anything specific.

    It’s not as though I were preaching “The Rapture” here. I have economics on my side, and you have…well, you have rudeness.

    Yes, economics. Read “Basic Economics” by Thomas Sowell.

    Raise your hands, all who have done so!

    Suspected as much.

  286. Von Cracker says:

    People, business folk, entrepreneurs, etc, are not going to purposely retard intake of income just out of spite because of a tax increase (though I will concede that some who may have an income projection slightly over 250k will try to get under that amount, but that population is minimal). But to say that Business X, which has a real chance at raking in over 350k, 500k, 750k or the year, will shut down, purposefully, in order to avoid paying a slight increase in taxes, is just laughable, child-like, spiteful, wishful thinking. To sum up in one word, irrational.

    Asked and answered, again.

  287. jaafar says:

    Von Cracker says: “People, business folk, entrepreneurs, etc, are not going to purposely retard intake of income just out of spite because of a tax increase (though I will concede that some who may have an income projection slightly over 250k will try to get under that amount, but that population is minimal).”

    Yeah, that population is so minimal (paying 60% of US income taxes).

    Has it never occurred to you that people will get tired of this endless sense of entitlement? Have you ever actually read ANYTHING expressing the sentiments of Those About To Be Soaked?

    It’s not just 4.5%, dude. It’s a huge decrease in deductions as well, plus a huge rise in FICA. It may well amount to a 30% increase, from that liar who said he would not increase taxes.

    You know, Von Cracker, through all your tirades, I don’t notice YOU as willing to pay for his crap. Your entire “argument,” silly as it is, amounts to telling everyone that “THEY won’t mind paying for this crap.”

    Good luck with that.

    That’s where Rush Limbaugh and I disagree. Rushie wants a lot of attention, so he says “I WANT OBAMA TO FAIL.”

    Not me. I just look at what Obama wants to do, and I say to myself, “That’s never going to work.” Translated into English: I don’t have to want anything. I don’t have to NOT want anything. These policies are going to fail.

    On the positive side: you must be aware that many economists think and say that government should do NOTHING about the recession — they should let the fever worsen and take out all the rot — and then the recovery will be genuine.

    President Obama has actually managed to do this! His “stimulus bill” is nothing of the sort, and so he actually managed to do the “right thing” through stupidity, and corruption.

    Get ready for more. We have four more years of “Gee, this is my first real job” Obama to go.

  288. Von Cracker says:

    “Yeah, that population is so minimal (paying 60% of US income taxes).”

    I think you need to re-read what I stated before if you think that 60% of tax revenue comes from earners making slightly more than 250K, for they are the ones who, most likely, will try to keep under the income subjected to the highest marginal tax rate. Not folks making 300K, there’s more money to be had in making the 300K than stopping short, after all is said and done.

    Nice try at twisting the words so you could go on with your rant.

    A couple other things:

    I really don’t know how you could “notice” how I could do “whatever”, unless you’re the all-seeing eye! LOL!

    There is nothing in the proposed tax structure, as of yet, referencing a decrease in deductions (banter, mostly), and the increase of FICA (raise SS cap and Medicare rate increase) is supposedly off-set small-biz tax credits and by the lessening of Health Care costs on businesses and individuals.

    And, finally, your reliance on hyperbole is telling; it gives an impression of doubt in one’s argument.

    One more thing:

    If you think this is some sort of Robin Hood scheme, then let’s talk about the loopholes the highest earners have had at their disposal for years now….

    A state or municipality has no money for first-responders? Why? Well, one factor could be due to the loss of revenue from high-income earners being paid in stocks and dividends, which is taxed at 15%, instead of the normal income rate of 32%?

    There’s more, obviously, but if what above doesn’t say it all, then why go on?

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