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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s Biden.</title>
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	<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/</link>
	<description>Ground zero for all things political in Delaware</description>
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		<title>By: cassandra m</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48674</link>
		<dc:creator>cassandra m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:06:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48674</guid>
		<description>Steve, when Clark jumped into the Presidential race in 2004, I heard some of the he &quot;almost started WWIII&quot; stuff from two distinctive places -- the far right and the far left.  I spent a decent amount of time looking at what was available on Clark via Lexus Nexus (which I can&#039;t retrieve from here) and what I think is true is that the definitive account of his career and his time in Kosovo has yet to be done.  And since I do have alot of friends and business acquaintances who have first hand experiences with him or who have access to folks with first hand experiences of him.  The tales are all over the place, not unlike what they would be for a controversial exec in private industry.

I suspect, at heart, that Clark was too overly interested in the political (and in manipulating the political) in an organization that publicly wants to be seen as politics-adverse but internally (especially at the Pentagon) politics is just as much a professional sport as it is for their overseers up on Pennsylvania Ave.

Clark is considered a nutter by a few insiders and that group has been very vocal in their opinions.  But there are just as many insiders who do have different opinions.  And if the guy is selected as VP (which is a longshot, I think) I imagine that the vetting process will have shown that persistent vocal group won&#039;t matter particularly much at this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, when Clark jumped into the Presidential race in 2004, I heard some of the he &#8220;almost started WWIII&#8221; stuff from two distinctive places &#8212; the far right and the far left.  I spent a decent amount of time looking at what was available on Clark via Lexus Nexus (which I can&#8217;t retrieve from here) and what I think is true is that the definitive account of his career and his time in Kosovo has yet to be done.  And since I do have alot of friends and business acquaintances who have first hand experiences with him or who have access to folks with first hand experiences of him.  The tales are all over the place, not unlike what they would be for a controversial exec in private industry.</p>
<p>I suspect, at heart, that Clark was too overly interested in the political (and in manipulating the political) in an organization that publicly wants to be seen as politics-adverse but internally (especially at the Pentagon) politics is just as much a professional sport as it is for their overseers up on Pennsylvania Ave.</p>
<p>Clark is considered a nutter by a few insiders and that group has been very vocal in their opinions.  But there are just as many insiders who do have different opinions.  And if the guy is selected as VP (which is a longshot, I think) I imagine that the vetting process will have shown that persistent vocal group won&#8217;t matter particularly much at this point.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Newton</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48650</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Newton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48650</guid>
		<description>Cassandra
If you thought I flamed you, I&#039;m sorry; I intended to disagree strongly.

The problem is that most sources on Clark that can be quoted are not easily available on the internet, while they are open sources.  This makes having the discussion difficult.

I reiterate the original point:  even by institutional standards of our overly politicized senior military officers, Wesley Clark is considered by insiders to be ... well, I said it before, a nutter.

IMHO that fact should outweigh partisan considerations.  Obviously, for a lot of people (and I&#039;m not necessarily including you here), it doesn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cassandra<br />
If you thought I flamed you, I&#8217;m sorry; I intended to disagree strongly.</p>
<p>The problem is that most sources on Clark that can be quoted are not easily available on the internet, while they are open sources.  This makes having the discussion difficult.</p>
<p>I reiterate the original point:  even by institutional standards of our overly politicized senior military officers, Wesley Clark is considered by insiders to be &#8230; well, I said it before, a nutter.</p>
<p>IMHO that fact should outweigh partisan considerations.  Obviously, for a lot of people (and I&#8217;m not necessarily including you here), it doesn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: cassandra m</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48643</link>
		<dc:creator>cassandra m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48643</guid>
		<description>Steve, you were the one who said that I should go look for better info about Clark&#039;s Pristina episode and now you want to flame me for doing just that.  Just because I didn&#039;t find your article from The Nation to be gospel?  Please.  Enlighten us all with why you think that The Nation is more authoritative than the BBC.  But I could save you the effort and just note that The Nation has an account that reinforces the narrative you want.  

And it is too bad that you missed the point of the whole Petraeus narrative -- big organizations have big organization behavior and that includes cliques, camps, and groups of those with ambitions to be in them and of those who have agendas to against them.  And all of that needs to be taken into account when considering how much of what any partisan has to say.  But then again, none of this was reported in The Nation, so I suppose it won&#039;t register, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, you were the one who said that I should go look for better info about Clark&#8217;s Pristina episode and now you want to flame me for doing just that.  Just because I didn&#8217;t find your article from The Nation to be gospel?  Please.  Enlighten us all with why you think that The Nation is more authoritative than the BBC.  But I could save you the effort and just note that The Nation has an account that reinforces the narrative you want.  </p>
<p>And it is too bad that you missed the point of the whole Petraeus narrative &#8212; big organizations have big organization behavior and that includes cliques, camps, and groups of those with ambitions to be in them and of those who have agendas to against them.  And all of that needs to be taken into account when considering how much of what any partisan has to say.  But then again, none of this was reported in The Nation, so I suppose it won&#8217;t register, either.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Newton</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48618</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Newton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48618</guid>
		<description>cassandra
Of course you can find (a) competing versions of the events; (b) of course 4-stars are political animals with baggage; and (c) noting that you can find people to say bad things about Petraeus is irrelevant.  (I liked your appeal to personal experience of talking to people with stars on their shoulders.  Cute and in its own way nicely dismissive.)

I&#039;ve worked with, for and above people who served with General Clark in a variety of assignments.  He has more of a reputation as a careerist hack than Colin Powell ever did.  There is plenty of evidence about Clark&#039;s bizarre &quot;style of command&quot; and persistent refusals to follow administrative policy and directives.

You would seriously suggest that after 8 years of Bushco you want to place one heartbeat away from the Presidency a man whose judgment and ability to follow national policy (and relevant laws) has been called into question at every position he&#039;s held from Colonel to 4-Star?

Hey, hold that thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cassandra<br />
Of course you can find (a) competing versions of the events; (b) of course 4-stars are political animals with baggage; and (c) noting that you can find people to say bad things about Petraeus is irrelevant.  (I liked your appeal to personal experience of talking to people with stars on their shoulders.  Cute and in its own way nicely dismissive.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve worked with, for and above people who served with General Clark in a variety of assignments.  He has more of a reputation as a careerist hack than Colin Powell ever did.  There is plenty of evidence about Clark&#8217;s bizarre &#8220;style of command&#8221; and persistent refusals to follow administrative policy and directives.</p>
<p>You would seriously suggest that after 8 years of Bushco you want to place one heartbeat away from the Presidency a man whose judgment and ability to follow national policy (and relevant laws) has been called into question at every position he&#8217;s held from Colonel to 4-Star?</p>
<p>Hey, hold that thought.</p>
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		<title>By: It&#8217;s Joe Biden &#8230;</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48608</link>
		<dc:creator>It&#8217;s Joe Biden &#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48608</guid>
		<description>[...] The buzz is all over the liberal Virginia blogosphere that it won&#8217;t be Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine. Using similar logic, hours beforehand, Delaware Liberal infers that the man to sit at the right hand of the Messiah is Sen. Joe Biden (D-DE.... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The buzz is all over the liberal Virginia blogosphere that it won&#8217;t be Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine. Using similar logic, hours beforehand, Delaware Liberal infers that the man to sit at the right hand of the Messiah is Sen. Joe Biden (D-DE&#8230;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: cassandra m</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48515</link>
		<dc:creator>cassandra m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:48:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48515</guid>
		<description>As much as I admire The Nation for alot of things, an article written as a critique of a military man seeking the Presidency is something like fulfulling one of the stereotypes of the Left, yes?

&lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/671495.stm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The BBC&lt;/a&gt; provides more detail on the confrontation, including noting that the NATO Secretary General told Clark to take the airport, and that there were expectation differences between the Russians and NATO over chain of command.  And part of Warner&#039;s hearings dealt with this issue.

I&#039;ve no doubt that Clark has career mistakes, issues and enemies, green suit and otherwise.  But there are not many 4 stars that don&#039;t have similar (if less public) baggage.  As for your nutter charge -- there is certainly a faction down in the Pentagon who would say the same about Petraeus, and do.  And those charges (along with details), I&#039;ve heard first hand from folks with stars on their shoulders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As much as I admire The Nation for alot of things, an article written as a critique of a military man seeking the Presidency is something like fulfulling one of the stereotypes of the Left, yes?</p>
<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/671495.stm" rel="nofollow">The BBC</a> provides more detail on the confrontation, including noting that the NATO Secretary General told Clark to take the airport, and that there were expectation differences between the Russians and NATO over chain of command.  And part of Warner&#8217;s hearings dealt with this issue.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve no doubt that Clark has career mistakes, issues and enemies, green suit and otherwise.  But there are not many 4 stars that don&#8217;t have similar (if less public) baggage.  As for your nutter charge &#8212; there is certainly a faction down in the Pentagon who would say the same about Petraeus, and do.  And those charges (along with details), I&#8217;ve heard first hand from folks with stars on their shoulders.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Newton</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48470</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Newton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 03:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48470</guid>
		<description>By the way, jason, that &quot;weak shit&quot; about Clark--one of the easiest ways to access the story is through that bastion of conservative journalism, The Nation; you can go there through here

http://delawarelibertarian.blogspot.com/2008/06/wes-i-promise-i-wont-start-ww3-honest.html

Clark is a nutter....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, jason, that &#8220;weak shit&#8221; about Clark&#8211;one of the easiest ways to access the story is through that bastion of conservative journalism, The Nation; you can go there through here</p>
<p><a href="http://delawarelibertarian.blogspot.com/2008/06/wes-i-promise-i-wont-start-ww3-honest.html" rel="nofollow">http://delawarelibertarian.blogspot.com/2008/06/wes-i-promise-i-wont-start-ww3-honest.html</a></p>
<p>Clark is a nutter&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Newton</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48468</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Newton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 03:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48468</guid>
		<description>cassandra
With all due respect (seriously) you need to go back and examine the relevant records again; the Warner hearings were as soft a landing as could be arranged for Clark; significant elements among the senior US Armed Forces command structure wanted him cashiered; the Brit General--Jackson--had a far better lifetime record than Clark.  Even Bubba wanted Clark put out to pasture.

Eventually, some day, someone with access will research and write the full story of Clark&#039;s own insubordination and dangerous conduct in the Balkans.

He had a long-time reputation in the Army as a nutter before that....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cassandra<br />
With all due respect (seriously) you need to go back and examine the relevant records again; the Warner hearings were as soft a landing as could be arranged for Clark; significant elements among the senior US Armed Forces command structure wanted him cashiered; the Brit General&#8211;Jackson&#8211;had a far better lifetime record than Clark.  Even Bubba wanted Clark put out to pasture.</p>
<p>Eventually, some day, someone with access will research and write the full story of Clark&#8217;s own insubordination and dangerous conduct in the Balkans.</p>
<p>He had a long-time reputation in the Army as a nutter before that&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: jason330</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48463</link>
		<dc:creator>jason330</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 03:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48463</guid>
		<description>In your face Art Downs.  Get out of here with that weak shit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In your face Art Downs.  Get out of here with that weak shit.</p>
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		<title>By: cassandra_m</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48462</link>
		<dc:creator>cassandra_m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 02:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48462</guid>
		<description>Risk his Senate seat?  On what planet?

And Wes Clarke did not nearly start a world war.  The British General decided that he did not want to stop the Russians from taking control of the airport -- he may or may not have made the correct judgment, but John Warner held hearings in the Senate to discuss whether the British general had been insubordinate and taking ideas on how to prevent such behavior in NATO future.  Not exactly the actions of folks worried about nearly averting a world war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Risk his Senate seat?  On what planet?</p>
<p>And Wes Clarke did not nearly start a world war.  The British General decided that he did not want to stop the Russians from taking control of the airport &#8212; he may or may not have made the correct judgment, but John Warner held hearings in the Senate to discuss whether the British general had been insubordinate and taking ideas on how to prevent such behavior in NATO future.  Not exactly the actions of folks worried about nearly averting a world war.</p>
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		<title>By: Joanne Christian</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48460</link>
		<dc:creator>Joanne Christian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 02:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48460</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know...Rendell promised to deliver Pa. if Biden is the choice...and he really doesn&#039;t fool around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know&#8230;Rendell promised to deliver Pa. if Biden is the choice&#8230;and he really doesn&#8217;t fool around.</p>
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		<title>By: Art Downs</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48448</link>
		<dc:creator>Art Downs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 01:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48448</guid>
		<description>Wesley Clark nearly started a world war on the Balkans when he wanted to challenge some Russians protecting locals from Muslims. Fortunately, a British general had the good sense to intervene.

Let it be Biden and see if he has the guts to risk his Senate seat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wesley Clark nearly started a world war on the Balkans when he wanted to challenge some Russians protecting locals from Muslims. Fortunately, a British general had the good sense to intervene.</p>
<p>Let it be Biden and see if he has the guts to risk his Senate seat.</p>
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		<title>By: delawaredem</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48435</link>
		<dc:creator>delawaredem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48435</guid>
		<description>Why do they bother putting an (H) behind Clinton&#039;s name?  It is unconstitutional for Bill Clinton to serve as Vice President since he is precluded from ever serving as President again (remember, the VP must meet the same qualifications as the Pres), and Chelsea is too young to meet the qualifications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do they bother putting an (H) behind Clinton&#8217;s name?  It is unconstitutional for Bill Clinton to serve as Vice President since he is precluded from ever serving as President again (remember, the VP must meet the same qualifications as the Pres), and Chelsea is too young to meet the qualifications.</p>
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		<title>By: pandora</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48432</link>
		<dc:creator>pandora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48432</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t want Bayh!  Blah...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t want Bayh!  Blah&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: jason330</title>
		<link>http://www.delawareliberal.net/2008/08/11/its-biden/#comment-48430</link>
		<dc:creator>jason330</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.delawareliberal.net/?p=5800#comment-48430</guid>
		<description>Richardson is at 4.0 

NEW.DEM.VP.BAYH 26.   -2.0

NEW.DEM.VP.KAINE  18.0 +1.5

NEW.DEM.VP.SEBELIUS  12.0 -2.5

NEW.DEM.VP.CLARK 10.0 +5.0

NEW.DEM.VP.BIDEN 11.9  0

NEW.DEM.VP.GEPHARDT  12.0  +8.4

NEW.DEM.VP.SCHWEITZER 7.5 +2.0

NEW.DEM.VP.CLINTON(H) 6.5 0</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richardson is at 4.0 </p>
<p>NEW.DEM.VP.BAYH 26.   -2.0</p>
<p>NEW.DEM.VP.KAINE  18.0 +1.5</p>
<p>NEW.DEM.VP.SEBELIUS  12.0 -2.5</p>
<p>NEW.DEM.VP.CLARK 10.0 +5.0</p>
<p>NEW.DEM.VP.BIDEN 11.9  0</p>
<p>NEW.DEM.VP.GEPHARDT  12.0  +8.4</p>
<p>NEW.DEM.VP.SCHWEITZER 7.5 +2.0</p>
<p>NEW.DEM.VP.CLINTON(H) 6.5 0</p>
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