Is the US a Secular Nation?
UPDATE: If you are reading this post you are not in Turkey. Apparently this site is being blocked by their government or someone. We will keep you posted on what we discover….
I was listening to an interview with a Turkish tour guide today. She was asked about the role that Fundamentalist Islam was playing in Turkey today. She said that there was a bit of a rise in fundamentalism in society, but that “we are taking our measures against them.”
Turkey defines itself as a secular nation, even though it is 99% Muslim. The U.S. is a much less homogeneous society and was founded on the ideas of religious tolerance and religious freedom. So I wonder why we have to be called a Christian nation? Aren’t we a secular nation with a problem with fundamentalists that we aren’t willing to address?
Tags: Civil Rights, Religion
We are not a Christian nation. The notion that we are a Christian nation is one foisted upon us only recently. “In God We Trust” and “one nation under god” were added to the currency and the pledge only recently — in the 1950s. Look it up.
The treaty of Tripoli, signed by Pres. John Adams and ratified by the Senate says: “… the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion …” (look it up yourself, don’t trust my ellipses.)
God and/or Jesus are mentioned zero times in the Constitution (count them yourself). Does that sound like the constitution of a Christian nation?
Thomas Jefferson was, at most, a deist, and made his own version of the Bible from which he literally cut — with a razor — all references to the supernatural.
Those that proclaim the U.S. to be a “Christian Nation” are ignorant, lying, or both.
Thanks for stopping by, scary.
I agree with you and thanks for the references.
“Our true mentor in life is science.”
– Ataturk
“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.”
– Jefferson
“Like John Adams knows anything about the beliefs of the Founding Fathers!”
– James Dobson
I found this article purely by chance. This morning I was surprised to find that access to this site was banned by a Turkish court order. Looking around, the only topic that mentioned Turkey was this one. So why the censorship? Is the government so annoyed with the positive comments about Ataturk? Just like most of the things they do, the government is ignorant about what it can and can’t do.
Yes, Ataturk is very dear to us. He was a unique person in so many ways. He brought Turkey (the Ottoman empire at that time)out of dark ages and put us on a path along with the civilized western countries. If it wasn’t for Ataturk, the present day Turkey would have been just one of the third world countries in the Middle East most of which do not even have a slight resemblance to democracy.
I have spent a great deal of time in the USA and Europe and have a very good understanding of western culture and the tendency to view Turkey. I agree with the above comment, Turkey is a unique place. There is about a 10-15 % moslem fundamentalist population but most of the Turks have braced secularism and their attitude towards religion is no different than in western countries.
The best example of this is that during the holy month of ramadan, many people do not consume alcohol, but as soon as the month is over raki sales go up again (raki is the Turkish ouzo).
More than 600,000 people visited Ataturk’s mausoleum last week to commemorate the day he died.
Fortunately, the love of Ataturk and his ideals are deeply embedded in the vast majority of Turks and the armed forces have a duty given to them by the constitution to protect the ideals of Ataturk. In that respect, the Turkish military is also unique and most Turks find that the military is the most trusted establishment in Turkey.
Well, I’m one of your much-hated wingnuts. I believe America is a Christian nation, but not because all the people are Christians, or even the Founding Fathers. I believe it is a Christian nation because if you look at the whole course of history since Christ, you can see the zeal (nucleus) of the Christian religion moving from Rome throughout Europe, to Germany, to Britain, to America, and now to the non-European world.
America is quickly becoming a secularized nation (in contrast to the past), and the zeal can more appropriately be seen in places like Brazil, Africa, and the underground church in China. But the torch has not fully passed yet. America has been the main proponent and funder of Christian international missions, revivals, evangelicalism (or what you call “fundamentalism) since at least the 1850s, perhaps before.
The non-secularized Muslims all know this, and along with our secular evangelism which they also hate (i.e. Hollywood), they is why they target America (and probably Britain next, and the other European countries after that). They think once they get us, their two dueling enemies of Christianity and secular humanism will cease.
US fundamentalism is divorced from the teachings of Jesus. So are mainstream Protestants and Catholics, though in a more benign way.
Read Thomas Paine, he’ll offer you the clearest idea that reason and not religion must dominate the affairs of the nation for it to remain a republic. His warning is very apropo. Check him out.
For all the affection I have for Turks, if we are talking about Ataturk and the young Turk movement, everyone should go out and get the book Tigris Burning. Excellent Book.
Guh, of course it’s a “Christian” nation — it sure as hell shouldn’t be, but it is. As stated, our money says “in God we trust,” not in Buddha or Goddess we trust 🙂
In the workplace or other public gathering places, it’s generally fine and dandy to chat mildly about your Christian beliefs, but not so true with many other belief systems. Not if you value your job or business (especially true in the South)…
And sheeot, look at our laws, you don’t think a multitude of them are based on Christian beliefs? Prostitution, suicide, (abortion), drug use… Why would these things be illegal? Why wouldn’t an individual have a natural human right, the FREEDOM, to own/govern his/her own body??
The basis for law should be solely about FREEDOM, and whether or not a certain act truly harms OTHERS, not oneself. No, prostitution does not harm others. It’s a fact that the illegality of it is what actually harms society. Drug use, in an of itself, it harms no one but the user. So again, why are these illegal? Christian law.
The arrogance of Christians is a clue. They go in anywhere with their chests out, flapping their tongues freely about what they believe… They gasp, and seem genuinely appalled and stunned at the idea that prayer should not be part of all children’s public schooling, that we don’t want their frickin’ ten commandments in OUR government buildings. They’d freak if other religios beliefs were to be posted, held higher, in that way. They would swoon with disbelief at the very idea. Again, they know who’s the favored child in this nation — it’s blatant.
This nation is about controlling us to the point of no longer having freedom, and it’s getting away with it in the name of what’s supposedly “right” per the “good book.” And our acceptance of it, our complacence, has been and continues to be a surety that it will only get worse.
Look at our nation — what it’s become. Again, of course, it’s Christian.
As this debate progresses through the comments, I realize the historical implications behind the secularism.
All three times mentioned: the Founding Fathers, Attaturk after WWI, and today, were coming off some bad times where religions had wreaked havoc among its everyday citizens lives.
The founding fathers were aware of the waste imposed by the religious wars of Europe throughout the 16th and 17th Centuries. Attaturk was familiar with the Moslem’s Sunni-Shiites battles of religious dominance. Today we have a president who while campaigning in Iowa said his hero was Jesus and has since pushed us into a war we can’t win, has ballooned the deficit into a debt we can’t pay, and has initiated a Faith Based Initiative so his maladministration can bleed all the faith ministries dry while he spends his resources on his pet projects…..
There is no doubt as to why we are hearing more pining today for secularism than we heard throughout the entire Clinton presidency……for religious conservatives, those were truly the “good old days.”
To scaryreasoner and others:
I, as a Christian, would fully agree with what you say about the founding fathers and such. Our federal laws are influenced by Judeo-Christian values, but we’re not by any mans the only country in the world or the only judicial system that values life and ownership and respect of authority and so on.
Dana:
However, I also agree with you in that our nation is highly influenced by the Christian faith and calendar as well. No matter how you look at it, our nation does operate under Christian assumptions. You can blame Constantine for starting that.
Jaime:
Yes at one point in American history, we probably could have been considered a Christian nation. But not so anymore.
Anon:
In as kind a way I can say it: get off your high horse and quite thinking that whatever brand of Christianity your professing has got it all figured out. I fall squarely in the moderate Christianity camp but I would never go so far as to claim that I have all the answers and other legitimate Christian groups – i.e. those who claim Jesus Christ as the Son of God and salvation by faith alone – are not Christian. God is a lot bigger than you or your world.
Disbelief:
Despite what you see on t.v., I’ve never met a true Christian (see above) who actually believes a thing people the likes of Benny Hinn say and teach. Even most Pentecostals shutter at what he does for the faith. There is nothing he does that even remotely lines up with what the Bible teaches – even by the most liberal of interpretations.
Dovelove:
I’m sorry about your experiences. They really are unfortunate. I’m currently living in western Michigan. My experience here has been very similar to what you describe about not being able to voice a non-Christian opinion in public. Even as a Christian, I often find myself discriminated for challenging people’s rather narrow perceptions of what it means to be Christian. But before moving here, I lived in Oregon and before that California. Especially in Oregon, the exact opposite is true. More often than not, Christians specifically are discriminated against while virtually every other faith is accepted with open arms. All I ask is that you consider American society on a broader scale when you speak in such generalities with all things – not just religion. One last note: your emphasis on “FREEDOM” translates to anarchy. Absolute freedom create total anarchy.
Evangelist = Evil’s Agent
With all this talk about our laws being influenced by judeo-christian philosophy makes it sound like other non-jc societies condoned murder, theft, rape, etc.
Maybe it’s more to do with self and community preservation, which has been around long before the story of Exodus, and resembles a Humanistic view of life instead of a particular religion.
I do know for certain our laws were/are influenced by the Magna Carta, Locke, Rousseau, et al…all of which identify a singular human trait – It’s called REASON
I think all this j-c talk is bogarting the credit on why our judicial and legislative philosophies are the way they are.
Ahh, but as any watcher of the original Star Trek episodes knows too well, the cold rational Spock reasoning is NOT always right, nor is the knee jerk emotional fanaticism of Dr. McCoy. It is only when both are conglomerated with bad acting in the form of the original Captain Kirk character, that humanism triumphs over the best that aliens have to offer………
“The basis for law should be solely about FREEDOM, and whether or not a certain act truly harms OTHERS, not oneself.”
I suppose this is the statement to which you refer. If that’s what you call anarchy, then I’m good with that 🙂
Your statement: “God is a lot bigger than you or your world.”
Yes she is, heh 🙂 and she wants us to truly be free. And the primary reason our world is in the mess it’s in is because of all of our controlling systems that are choking the life out of us, including religion.
Humans were meant to be free and they either will be or they will self-destruct. Behold our world rapidly approaching that point. I hold fear-based (judging/hating, instilling self-loathing in people — “sinners,” “wretches”) relgion solely responsible for that. You teach a people they are low lifes, sorry “sinners” and are nothing without some fantasy, vengeful, contradictory god, and then expect them to create a world that is loving and peaceful??
Look where all your control crap has gotten us? Oh wait, I’ll bet everything’s falling apart because we STILL don’t have ENOUGH prisons, laws, policeman…and still not enough churches and people sitting in pews being brainwashed into believing they either bow their asses down or they’re gonna fry in hell. Yep, that’ll fix our world. Ya’ think?
Oregon, yeah, I used to live there — I loved it 🙂
Spock was logical, not rational.
fyi we are researching why this website is banned in Turkey
Per #32:
Looks like our ramblings are being dissected by someone who obviously believes we’ll eventually be judged by a great SkyDad.
Funny that he promotes his argument with the ol’ ambiguous “Creator” line in the Declaration of Independence (which really could mean anything from Mother Earth, a deity, or your parents and forefathers), but dismisses an verifiable quote from a founding father (who, btw, was there when all this shit went down) who created a legal document which was signed and ratified by our government. And this was only one decade after this country was founded. Talk about selective reasoning!
And it looks like Ruffian was not able to recognize ‘Evangelist = Evil’s Agent’ as an anagram. Sometimes there’s hidden truths in them, if you’re able to make that leap of faith! 😉
His long, rhetorical post is just another case of American/christian exceptionalism at its worst.
***I’ve seen and lived in different countries. To me US is ranked #1 in terms of conservatism. Churches are very powerful here. Churches are striving for power. You can see this just by start counting how many different churches exist. Since there is one Jesus Christ, why many different Churches.
***@ Turkish Citizen. You mentioned that “I believe it is up to the American people to get rid of Bush and elect someone with more common sense and specifically some knowledge of history.” I believe US has 10 to 50 years long strategyical plans. Therefore either Bush or Hillary aint gonna change things. I believe when someone? believes that plan is slowed down, than something happenes and faster moving president takes it over. Even if Hillary takes it over, i do not think US is going to get out of Iraq.
@ Turksh citizen: I have found out that court lifted the ban. They announced it on 11/1/07 and started to lifting the blocks on 11/7/07. How the heck it works? So are you still not being able to see this site without logging into anonymouse.org or by changing your dns numbers?
@Turk, well the court may have lifted he ban but as of this morning I am still greeted with the announcement that the court has banned access to this site.
Actually, come to think of it, there is a major strike at telekom so let’s give them the benefit of the doubt and assume for the time being that the ban is still in effect due to that strike.
As for your other point, it is not just a matter of the US getting out of Iraq, I was referring to the confused US policy that ends up strengthening fundamentalism, which regardless of its source -islam or christian- is a recipe for trouble.
The simple fact is: in a secular country the religious people can practice their beliefs as they wish but in a theocracy if you are not part of the communion you most likely do not have the right to live.
I have lived for quite a long time in the US and the general attitude towards religion outside the major cities (both in the US and in Turkey) is pretty much the same, meaning it does have a strong influence in daily life.
With all respect to those who do have genuine religious beliefs, unfortunately I believe this conflict of religious/secular systems is bound to go on much longer than any conflict between religions.
This is where the value of Kemalism (Ataturk’s ideals) really shows itself.
This also makes me wonder (actually it is quite clear) why both the US and the EU are trying to force Turkey to minimize and eventually abandon Kemalism and weaken the influence of its staunch protector, the Turkish military, on political life here.